How many kata is too many kata?

[Littledragon]

I have a relatively simple to ask but in depth to answer, question and I would appreciate any comments or reasoning related to it. How many different kata (either empty handed or kobudo) do you think it is necessary to practice to gain their maximum benefit? Do you think there is a point where a person could know or practice too many different kata? Let’s assume the normal time constraints of a single working male. For example do you think 13 empty handed kata is a good number or perhaps 4, or perhaps 32? With Kobudo do you think 50 is appropriate, or 10? What is your reasoning?

Thank-you in advance for your insight and time.

-Paul Holsinger

Kata like any martial art forms unite the mind and body in one. The kata is the "art" side to the martial arts, it is the inner chi or ki and it is the philosophy being acted out. I believe there is no limit to how many kata's one can practice to gain their maximum benefit. There can never be a point where a person could know or practice too many different kata's because kata is the internal part of martial arts, everything has two side good and evil, short and tall, yin and yang, and the internal part of martial arts is the second part and the kata provides that. Kata is very important for a martial artist because it sets the tone for a certain momement where the martial artist is controlling his or her mentality by practiving kata. Kata is the second side to martial arts so I say in my opinion there is never a situation where you can say is there too much kata. Remember everything has to sides to it, with out the second what you are practcing is incomplete.

Tarek :asian:

 

[RW2]

I think 14 kata, at maximum, is best. How did I arrive at that number? My teacher told me it was important to review all the kata you know every week, and I think that practicing more than two kata in a day is confusing to your "muscle memory" or conditioning.

Kobayashi Shorin-ryu originally had 13 kata; Wado-ryu had 9; Goju-ryu had 12 (when their curricula were organized in the 1930s). These are reasonable kata lists. And of course they've all doubled or tripled in the typical school today, just to keep students (and teachers) interested.

In addition to limiting kata lists, I think it's also important not to mix and match kata; in each of these school examples, the kata are related and build on each other. For example, the five Pinan kata are essentially Reader's Digest versions of Kusanku-dai and Chinto; if you practice the Pinan, then advance to Kusanku-dai, your body goes "a ha!" and there's real learning. However, if you're also studying a variety of unrelated forms (e.g. Goju forms where you turn around on the opposite foot), the return on investment is limited.

There are only so many things you can do with four limbs. It doesn't take 50 kata to review them. And for regular folks, i.e. people with jobs, family, etc., keeping more kata than that at a high level of maintenance is unreasonable. I recommend focusing on one style, and keeping the list to 14 or fewer.

 

[gyaku-zuki queen]

One Kata is too many if your training time is limited. What do you get by studying Kata? I'll tell you. You get good at Tai Chi. I spent too much time practicing and teaching Kata. I should have spent all my time conditioning, working the bag, and sparring. So should you.

acually, by studying kata you learn more about what you are doing in the kata, and you get alot out of it. It helps your kumite in many ways, form for one. In tournament they will not award you the point if the technique is crappy.
If you are a kumite person, like me, training for kumite and conditioning is great, but upping up on ur kata will help alot too.

 

[Ippon Ken]

Great posts!

If the kata you do can be broken into 2-man drills (yakusuko kumite), with each technique adaptively applicable to a myriad of situations, then it is good. If it's done solely for the purpose of going through the motions, looking flashy or being overly dramatic, then you have what Sokon Matsumura coined "nominal budo" or the "budo of intellect". Like tournament oriented karate it is concerned with the wrong intetnions and lessons.

If the kata you do passes on the techs and principles of the ryu you are in, then it is good kata. If it takes 50 forms to accomplish this, then you have to question what it is you are learning, and if you're truly learning anything in-depth at all. We are not Kenwa Mabuni. There is no need to re-catalog the kata he collected over the years. Trying to master all the idiosyncracies of every style of tote is unrealistic. Mabuni did it in order to preserve those Okinawan and Chinese forms he was exposed to. I doubt he or Funakoshi truly mastered all the forms they learned from Shorin and Shorei Ryu.

That being said if you are in a ryuha that has over 25 kata, don't expect to understand them fully or perfect them. That would take diligence and practice beyond the average human lifespan. Take those kata which apply to you the best- your body type, maneuverability, speed, etc.- and refine them and understand them. This, of course, should be done when you reach a yudansha (BB) level. 8-12 will be a lot for even the most avid and dedicated karate-ka to truly understand. If every movement is a defensive or offensive application, which can vary (e.g: an x-block can be a strike, choke or block/trap) then imagine how long it would take to learn to apply these bunkai effectively!

Great topic, and remember that the kata is the ryu. Too much drift and you have a different ryuha. Preserving them as intact as they can be is the most important attribute lost in kata training today.

Peace!

 

[hippy]

There is no such thing as too much kata !

if everyone just kept training in a select few kata, the next generation of martial artists will have less of an art to learn, they may find themselves missing a vital kata that would help them unlock their understanding of technique.

i currently know about 25 kata, and i've not even scratched the surface. i've seen shotokan syllabus' upto 8th dan, where 10 kata are needed to reach 1st dan, the karateka must then learn a further 5 kata for 2nd dan, of which they will be asked to perform any 3 of the panels choice (therefore, the need to know all is mandatory). for each subsequent dan grade, a further 5 kata were available. again, only 3 would be asked for, but it would be simply embarrasing for the karateka, to simply stand there and admit they dont know the kata during the grading.

i have seen 10 versions of tokyoko (some of u may know it as kihon), for those of u that dont know this kata, it is a simple one made up of one blocking technique, and one striking technique, both are repeated numerous times, and the kata forms a basic I shape. now i, personally have only been taught 3 versions.
i have also seen, during martial arts demos, 10 versions of bassai.

by all means, hone your skills on a select few kata, but never forget the rest. we are all doing art forms, where the skills are passed on via word-of-mouth. just because a kata makes no sense to yourself, it may help a student of yours to explain the whole style, who knows ?
very rarely is martial arts properly recorded to pass on the knowledge, appart from those attempting to cash-in, charging £30 for a 30minute video on 5 kata.

No limit for kata, learn them all ! Pass on them all !

 

[DeLamar.J]

I think there should be two kata per belt, one hard style and one soft. So about 11 kata, any more than that is just over kill and useless IMO.

 

[Karazenpo]

There is no such thing as too much kata !

if everyone just kept training in a select few kata, the next generation of martial artists will have less of an art to learn, they may find themselves missing a vital kata that would help them unlock their understanding of technique.

i currently know about 25 kata, and i've not even scratched the surface. i've seen shotokan syllabus' upto 8th dan, where 10 kata are needed to reach 1st dan, the karateka must then learn a further 5 kata for 2nd dan, of which they will be asked to perform any 3 of the panels choice (therefore, the need to know all is mandatory). for each subsequent dan grade, a further 5 kata were available. again, only 3 would be asked for, but it would be simply embarrasing for the karateka, to simply stand there and admit they dont know the kata during the grading.



i have seen 10 versions of tokyoko (some of u may know it as kihon), for those of u that dont know this kata, it is a simple one made up of one blocking technique, and one striking technique, both are repeated numerous times, and the kata forms a basic I shape. now i, personally have only been taught 3 versions.
i have also seen, during martial arts demos, 10 versions of bassai.

by all means, hone your skills on a select few kata, but never forget the rest. we are all doing art forms, where the skills are passed on via word-of-mouth. just because a kata makes no sense to yourself, it may help a student of yours to explain the whole style, who knows ?
very rarely is martial arts properly recorded to pass on the knowledge, appart from those attempting to cash-in, charging £30 for a 30minute video on 5 kata.

No limit for kata, learn them all ! Pass on them all !

I can agree with 'hippy' if you are a teacher. You should have a surplus of kata to fit all body styles and personal attributes, sort of like the menu approach. If three of us go out to eat we may order off the same menu, yet each choosing something different that most appeals to our personal taste and again, I also agree that our personal 'core' should be limited to only a few if not the one, our personal kata(s) or favorite kata(s) that fits us like a glove. I know with Professor Nick Cerio, despite his vast knowledge of kata, it was 'Circle of the Tiger'. He considered that the nucleus of his system and his 'baby' as he would say. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras

 

[Karazenpo]

I think 14 kata, at maximum, is best. How did I arrive at that number? My teacher told me it was important to review all the kata you know every week, and I think that practicing more than two kata in a day is confusing to your "muscle memory" or conditioning.

Kobayashi Shorin-ryu originally had 13 kata; Wado-ryu had 9; Goju-ryu had 12 (when their curricula were organized in the 1930s). These are reasonable kata lists. And of course they've all doubled or tripled in the typical school today, just to keep students (and teachers) interested.

In addition to limiting kata lists, I think it's also important not to mix and match kata; in each of these school examples, the kata are related and build on each other. For example, the five Pinan kata are essentially Reader's Digest versions of Kusanku-dai and Chinto; if you practice the Pinan, then advance to Kusanku-dai, your body goes "a ha!" and there's real learning. However, if you're also studying a variety of unrelated forms (e.g. Goju forms where you turn around on the opposite foot), the return on investment is limited.

There are only so many things you can do with four limbs. It doesn't take 50 kata to review them. And for regular folks, i.e. people with jobs, family, etc., keeping more kata than that at a high level of maintenance is unreasonable. I recommend focusing on one style, and keeping the list to 14 or fewer.

I also totally agree with KW2's statement and I've always used it myself in regards to the 'overkill' of self defense techniques: "There are only so many things you can do with four limbs." Fighting movements, in my opinion, are not infinite but finite. I would like to also add in Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu there are 19 forms. The first 11 are mandatory and are your foundation to develop the basic framework. Then you do not have to attempt to 'master' all eight of the advanced but choose either one or two from the eight and that is your specialization. I think this makes total sense. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras

 

[jakmak52]

I know 9, but I know fellow martial artists that know and DO 32!!! God love em.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Too many if you cannot perfect all of them, not enough if you don't learn enough techniques to defend yourself.

 

[kishoto]

Doing and mastering a kata are two diffrent things in 38 years i have preformed many katas including weapons but mastered only a few. kishoto

 

[47MartialMan]

The martial art system that I practice has about 103 forms. Not all are called Katas, which is a Karate term. The systems is mixed with Korean, Chinese and Japanese...so we call them forms to not over emphasize one.

 

[RRouuselot]

The martial art system that I practice has about 103 forms. Not all are called Katas, which is a Karate term. The systems is mixed with Korean, Chinese and Japanese...so we call them forms to not over emphasize one.

What style is it?

 

[47MartialMan]

Chin Gah Kuyhn....

but the head sifus, really do not want to call it anything...

 

[RRouuselot]

1) Chin Gah Kuyhn....

2) but the head sifus, really do not want to call it anything...

1) What language is it and what does it mean?


2) Who is he and why doesn't he want to call it anything?

 

[47MartialMan]

RRouuselot]1) What language is it and what does it mean?
Mandarin-
It means "Chin Family Fist"
But some Chinese romanticization would spell it Ga or Gar.
And in some romanticization, Kuyhn would be spelled Kuen, Kyuhn, or Kune.

2) Who is he and why doesn't he want to call it anything?
Because they did not want to give emphasis on one name. There were other instructors whom have contributed to the "family art". Although it may seem eclectic, most of the practitioners prefer the "Chin" name.

Some instructors of higher rank, went out and form their own name.

Think of it as a family.

Great Grand Dad passed a tradition to son(s) and/or daughters.

These in turn pass it on to other sons- and/or daughters.

Being that daughters, receive the name of their spouse, and in this large "family", the spouse had fully accepted and practices the tradition-
Thus, in turn, a "new" family name will surface.

But I prefer to state that I learn, practice, and teach, a martial art system, rather than a martial art style.

 

[thepanjr]

i think 30 is really good number for katas

 

[arnisador]

The martial art system that I practice has about 103 forms.

I've heard that some Kung Fu styles have over a hundred forms (typically the magic number of 108). It seems like too much to me. More and more I come to the "less can be more" way of thinking.

 

[Eternal Beginner]

I've heard that some Kung Fu styles have over a hundred forms (typically the magic number of 108). It seems like too much to me. More and more I come to the "less can be more" way of thinking.

I tend to agree with you. But it is also important to consider how kata is learned, studied, practiced. I went to a school where kata was purely a tool for promotion. You learned a,b,c kata and you were promoted to next belt. No bunkai, no discussion just "follow me" and do exactly as I do. It was a memory exercise more than anything. That type of kata is pointless and one is too many.

On the other hand, if kata is taught by knowledgeable instructors who are not using it solely as a basis for promotion you can learn many kata and get valuable things from them.

How many is too many? One, if taught poorly - but if taught well you should never stop learning.

 

[Flying Crane]

I tend to agree with you. But it is also important to consider how kata is learned, studied, practiced. I went to a school where kata was purely a tool for promotion. You learned a,b,c kata and you were promoted to next belt. No bunkai, no discussion just "follow me" and do exactly as I do. It was a memory exercise more than anything. That type of kata is pointless and one is too many.

On the other hand, if kata is taught by knowledgeable instructors who are not using it solely as a basis for promotion you can learn many kata and get valuable things from them.

How many is too many? One, if taught poorly - but if taught well you should never stop learning.

Yes, I think you have hit this on the head.