Kata - final version of a reference book, or evolving tool?

[Mike Clarke]

I too have been told that if I do my kata well I'll be able to hear the old masters talking to me. Like you, I don't expect to hear a voice, but I do sometimes get an 'understanding' about something I had not understood before, and this is what I think the "Masters talking to me" comment was refering to?

Like you, and your teacher too it seems, I believe that the understanding must be nurtured out from inside and not transplanted in from outside. The idea that starts you off might well come from someone else? but the understanding and the progress made from that, I think can only come from the inside out.

Which brings me back to a thought I had about something running on two other threads at the moment. the role of the sensei?
Are they there to guide you, to help your find something within yourself? Or are they there to be followed like little gods who know everything about everything?
Perhaps this should be the start of another thread?
Anyway, thanks for your feedback.
Mike.

 

[chufeng]

The teacher is there to point the way and offer guidance...nothing more.

Sometimes the teacher shares past experiences in order to help a student avoid a mistake that the teacher made in his training.

Sometimes a teacher SEES that the student is on the edge of understanding a concept...he may tease out the thread of understanding or may push the student over the edge of understanding...but after doing that, the student is responsible for developing that new insight...

The teacher must NOT take on the role of "know-it-all" and must himself be a student at all times...On the other hand, the student must trust his teacher enough to know that the teacher won't ask him to do something he is incapable of doing...

The incredible influence that a teacher may have must not be abused...significant psychological or emotional damage may result from a break in the trust between teacher and student.

IMHO
:asian:
chufeng

 

[RyuShiKan]

Well since I have been both a student and a teacher I can tell you there is no magic ceremony that makes you all seeing and all knowing when you become a teacher. In fact I have more questions now than before I started teaching. Quite often my students will ask me a question which gives me even more questions.
All I can do is answer their questions by my own personal experiences and ones my teacher has relayed to me.

There are two books I would like to recommend for more information on the "student-teacher" relationship.

One is called "RyuTe® no Michi" by my teacher Taika Oyata. This book is about various aspects of the martial arts not just the "student-teacher" relationship. It does give a lot of insight into how he was taught which I think many people will find rather alarming.

The second is called "The Quest" written by my dojo sempai Kyoshi Steve Stark. This has got to be one of the best sources for what it was like to train with Mr. Oyata when he first came to America back in 1977...... it's pretty funny too.

If anyone wants info on these books please contact me at [email protected]

 

[GojuBujin]

Osu,

Karate is kata, Kata is Karate.

It should be known that secret principles of Goju-Ryu exist in the kata. - Chnjun Miyagi Sensei

There are many reasons kata can be "different" Here are a few.

I know in my style there is the beginner's way of doing a kata, and then there is the more intermediate and then finally the true way the kata is to be done. These things sometimes are very subtle. Simple things as turning a supporting foot before doing a front kick from sanchin dachi, and in the more advanced the foot is turned when you bring the knee up for the kick. Croosing a leg before turning and facing another direction. These are subtle things.

Sometimes students don't stay with their teacher's long enough to derivie the full essencec of a particular kata.

There are also differencecs in the way a younger person and an older person does a kata.

Another reason is the person's own interpretation of the execution of the technique. You can show 10 people the same one and it will be slightly different each time.

I know in Goju it is said that Miyagi Sensei purposely taught people things differently.

One's kata will evolve with time, depending on how much you practice it, and how old you are and what your body can do.

Idealy I don't think kata should be "tampered with". Bunkai on the other hand is the free expression of the kata and you should do with that, and create as many applicaitons as you see fit.

Sometimes the Bunkai can effect the way the kata is done as well.

Every time I bring my Sensei to train with me and my students, My kata changes, it evolves...

Michael C. Byrd
http:/www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

 

[Mike Clarke]

My sensei [the late Miyazato Eiichi, Okinawan goju-ryu] once told me that the kata were there to " Hide" the bunkai.
Now if you think of bunkai as set moves done to set attacks then you miss the point of this. Kata [as far as I understand it] teach principles of movement, breathing, yes even some technique too, although the actual techniques used in a particular kata are not the most important thing about a kata.
Kata give insight in to the 'when' and the 'where'. The 'when' to move [to avoid the incoming force], and the 'where' top move to
[in order to control that force].
In goju-ryu you keep comming up against the same problems of being attacked at particular levels, the different kata allow you to practise different ideas of response to those attacks. The more advanced you become [through understanding, not rank], the more subtle the answers to your attack become.
So the 8th kyu working on their kata, and the godan working on theirs, are both working on the same problems, only the skill [understanding] differs and so provides a different answer to the attack. From the outside this may look like one person is doing 'basic' karate, and the other doing 'advanced' karate. But this too is a mistake as there is no such thing as basic and advanced karate, only people who have a basic or advanced 'understanding' of what it is they are doing.
Kata will always change from person to person [as we are not clones], but the all important "principles" of the system we study should remain intact if we think of ourselves as followers of a particular 'tradition', and hope to have anything of value to hand down to the next generation of budoka.

Regards,
Mike.

 

[chufeng]

Mike,

Nicely stated...

I practice Chinese Boxing and the very same principle applies. (not a big surprise, seeing where Okinawan Karate came from)

I would be MUCH happier if a student were to develop a very deep understanding of one of our forms, rather than a glossing over of many forms...

Once A FORM is mastered, then the lessons can be applied across all of the other forms within the system. So I would like to see a student really focus on one form while learning different strategies in one step and three step drills.

It is no wonder that the old masters would work one form for MANY years before moving to the next...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Mike Clarke]

Hey Chufeng,

Before WW2, I was told by my late sensei that his teacher,Miyagi Chojun sensei, would only teach his students sanchin, plus one [or two at most] kata.
Sanchin was trainined in by everyone because it contains the core ideas and principles of goju-ryu. It should be noted that there are two versions of the kata taught in goju-ryu, the longer form with the 180 degree turns [commonly known as Higaonna sanchin], and the shorter form [with the backward stepping, a hallmark of all the kata Miyagi sensei had a hand in developing], and this is sometimes called Miyagi sanchin. Some just say "Sanchin dai ichi, or, dai ni" [number 1 or 2].

The point is that Miyagi sensei belived a student could come to understand the system through the study of the core kata, plus one more that suited his character/body/mentality etc.
It was only after the war that he taught the kata in the way they are taught these days. It is said that he did this because he was ill and he felt the system would die out with the knowledge spread out so thinly.

Remember, when he died in October 1953, he had no more than a handfull of students training with him in his backyard. The people in Japan [Yamaguchi sensei etc]had had very limited contact with him, and many of his Okinawan students from before the war did not return after it [including the man being groomed to take over Jin'nin Shinzato sensei who was shot dead during the invasion of Okinawa by American troops].

These days 'more' is often confussed with 'better'. People want to go long, not deep. Form is often a poor second to function and rank is often confussed with skill. So, in such a world as this, is it any wonder we get so lost?
I'm not the only one to be told I'd hear the old masters of the past "talking" to me if I ever did my kata well. So I for one am not trying to climb higher, I'm trying to go deeper.
Trouble is, the deeper I go the darker it gets, and so I have to be real careful when I take the next step. It's easy to get lost.

Hello....Hello........anybody out there?

Mike.

 

[GojuBujin]

Osu,

Well said gentelmen, this has been a really good thread.

Michael C. Byrd
http://www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

 

[arnisador]

Is anyone putting their money where there mouth is and only teaching their students 2-3 kata? I think some offshoots of Uechi-ryu only teach the original 3 forms Kanbun Uechi had learned plus maybe 2 others.

Everyone talks about the good old days when people learned only two or three kata but is anyone doing it?

 

[chufeng]

Yes and No,

I have a student who's been with me for 1 1/2 years. I've shown him two kata...

I take our combination drills from several different kata, though.

Of course, he doesn't know where I come up with the combinations; he thinks I just make them up...but all of the drills come directly out of our forms...

So, in a sense, he is learning other kata...he just doesn't know it.

My other students are seniors in their own right (they each trained with my teacher several years ago)...they know a number of forms...but they don't really KNOW the forms...

I encourage them to find one they really like and work the snot out of it...

Heck I'm still learning a ton of stuff from the most "basic" from we've got.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[GojuBujin]

Osu,

I don't know of anyone doing that any longer. (I've thought about doing it) There are fewer and fewer taking the traditional path, I almost think you should try and pass on what you can of an entire system to who ever you can. I think the principle still exists where there are a few kata that are "yours" that you do the best. Other than Sanchin, my 3 favorite are and the ones I really work the hardest on are Shisochin, Seiyunchin, and Sepai, they suit me, I guess. It's not that i don't learn and do my very best to practicee, study, and break down the other's I do, but I hold those 3 special to me.

Look at To'on Ryu almost extinct....very scary.... I've heard it is an amazing style, although I only know of a hand full of people practicing the art.

To'on-Ryu was founded by Juhatsu Kyoda Sensei, a fellow student of Miyagi under Kanryho Higaonna Sensei. (I think there is still a thread on here about it)

Michael C. Byrd
http://www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

 

[Mike Clarke]

Hi all,
Look guys, I'm having a hard time with this.
The fact that we train in one ,two, or fifty kata is not the point. The point is are we studying the kata or just remembering the moves [in order to pass some dumb test!].
If it's the later then I have to say we've lost the plot. But if it's the former than we will have something to hand on to the next generation. In spite of all those who say they are training and teaching a particualar style, many are not, they have other motives for their activities.
Michael has a very good point when he says that he knows more kata than he really holds dear to him. That is not to say he should not pass on the other kata to his students. After all they may find the things he has found in the 3 kata he mentioned, but in other kata?
It's not a question of the "Good old days". These are the good days, the ones we are living right now in the dojo. They are the only days we've got so we better make them good.
Also, Miyagi sensei changed his mind about the amount of kata each person trained in when he felt the system might die out.
And in spite of the amount of people who put do-gi's on today, traditional/classical/othordox [call it what you like] karate is still not out of danger in that regard.
So again, the number of kata is not the issue, nore is the number of bunkai, nore the number of students. The issue is how we apply ourselves to understanding the body of information locked away in the kata of our system. We should not try to go back in time, nore rush forward to invent new methods, but play our part in the slow and steady evolution of our art with honest training and patient exploration.

"The true tradition in great endevours lies not in re-doing what others have done, but in finding the spirit which produced such things and would produce quite different ones in different times."

Paul Valery.

I've held this to be true for many years.
Mike.

 

[GojuBujin]

Domo Arigato,

Well said we're all fortunate to have a well seasoned practitioner on here as you Sensei Clarke.

Michael C. Byrd
http://www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

 

[Mike Clarke]

Oh shucks

Thank you Michael, but you know the best thing. There are people on here who leave me standing!

Cheers!
Mike.

 

[yilisifu]

I think that the various forms are textbooks for a given system. If you change them, you actually change the words/phrases in the original book...
It would be akin to changing Gershwin's "Rhapsody in Blue" in several spots because it's too difficult to play or because one just likes a little change in the melody. But if that is done, you no longer have "Rhapsody in Blue."

The reason we practice the forms are several, but chief among them is the constant striving for perfection of the form. In this way, we strive to perfect ourselves (through our art) as much as possible.

A given movement may be very difficult to perform or hard to understand, but the striving for perfection is the important thing. We train harder and harder to get the movements down just so. We study harder so as to understand the meaning(s) of the movements...constantly striving towards perfection and finding that the opponent is not really "out there."

 

[Mike Clarke]

I think it was old W.S. who said, " A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." [or something like that ?].

Anyway, I'm not sure kata should not change in external form and shape over the years? [mine have over the past three decades]. It's why the changes happen that counts? But I'm still trying to make wonderful music with them, so it may not be Phapsody in Blue? but I was only ever trying to capture 'my' feeling through 'my' understanding. I was never trying to compare 'my' music to George Gershwin's.

I agree with the last post, but it's not our job to just repeat what has gone before [that would make our art stale], we should be striving to impove ourselves and in doing so improve our art.

It's not change in kata that kills it's value, but the reason behind 'why' some people make those changes?

Mike.

 

[Matt Stone]

Mike -

Knowing you are a friend of RyuShiKan (who is also my friend, and has shown me a glimpse of Ryu Te), and being a student of Yilisifu, I know we are all really speaking about the same thing. We are playing a game of pin the tail on the donkey with words in relation to a subject that has only one understanding but many ways in which it can be expressed.

Kata are both blueprints for the understanding of and training in techniques both obvious (i.e. block and punch is simply a block and punch) and "hidden" or "concealed" (i.e. block and punch is actually a joint lock, or some other non-block-and-punch technique). It is the training in one or several kata that allows us to understand that a) if the form says step and punch we step and punch, or b) just because the form says step and punch does not imply we are limited to only step and punch.

As for the musical analogy, we certainly would never deign to tamper with what the past masters had composed, however there is nothing inherently wrong with adding our own style of play to the way the music comes out... I wouldn't change a note of anything Mozart wrote, but since I am not Mozart, I will certainly play it the only way I know how - my way. Maybe it will never sound as good as if it were played by Mozart, but in time if I play it often enough to know the keys by instinct rather than playing by sight, I can make the music my own...

It is nice to know that there are still plenty of people out there that think the same way my teachers and I think in regards to kata and bunkai. With the flood of lower quality instruction in the minimalls and such, sometimes I start to wonder if what we do is dying out or not...

Gambarimasu.

 

[Mike Clarke]

Hi Matt,

You're correct about the tail on the donkey, and yes it's nice to know "We are not alone." It can feel like that sometimes when you see what goes on around us.

I guess our martial arts [like life] are what we make them, and what we make them will have something to do with how we understand them. Every now and then I hear an echo from long ago saying, "There are no short cuts in karate." and as each year passes I come to understand that on different levels.

I guess we could ask the question, "How do we keep our kata the same over thirty years?" If there is anyone out there that has managed it I'd love to hear from them.

I once interviewed Sugano sensei from Aikido [New York Aikikai], and he told me his waza is different every single time he does it.
He was an uchi-deshi [live in student] of Ueshiba sensei and told me that he learnt this from him. It wasn't the physical actions of the waza he was teaching, but the 'feelings' that made such movements work. As he told me, "He was searching for something with aikido, and so am I. If aikido was fixed I might have mastered it many years ago, then what would be the point of continuing?"

I guess I feel the same way about goju-ryu.
Nice to get a handle on other peoples thoughts though.

Mike.

 

[chufeng]

Mike,

Of course the kata change...
To steal a line from "Circle of Iron:"

"You can't step on the same piece of water twice."

Each time you read from scripture (regardless of your religion or what scripture you read) there is something NEW...but the words haven't changed.

Kata is like that...the words (movements within the kata) must be passed down, intact...each person who immerses himself in the discipline of Karate or Ch'uan Fa must find the meaning of it himself...and no two martial artists will ever do the same kata, just as you will never do the kata the same way twice...

Will I develop my own kata...maybe...(but don't hold your breath).
Will I change the forms my teacher taught me? Of course AND No Way !!! The way I do a form will always change...but, I will pass on the form as I learned it from Sifu...

And since you are a "traditionalist," I guess that makes you an old fuddy-duddy...that's what one of my students in Hawaii called me...I still train, he doesn't.

Great comments above.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Mike Clarke]

Blessed are the Fuddy- Duddys, for they shall inherit the earth!

WEll.........I hope so anyway

Mike.