How many kata is too many kata?

[Flying Crane]

I've heard that some Kung Fu styles have over a hundred forms (typically the magic number of 108). It seems like too much to me. More and more I come to the "less can be more" way of thinking.

I have heard that Lohan had 108 forms, one for each of the 108 Buddhist saints. I have learned two of them. My sifu knows six. Given the length of the two that I know, I cannot imagine that anyone could have known, much less mastered, all 108 (assuming that this is an accurate number). You would have to practice 24/7, and still not do it enough.

 

[Eternal Beginner]

Yes, I think you have hit this on the head.

Thank you!:asian:

 

[DavidCC]

We have 10 kata to reach black belt. Then we have 5 more after that to reach 5th. Right now I am 5th kyu and know 6 kata and am learning a 7th:

pinan 1, pinan 2, pinan 3, kata 1, kata 2 (aren't those great names, very informative LOL it's Shaolin Kempo so mostly based on the Pesare/Cerio kata if you want to know) and also seisan, which is technically a post-shodan level form in our system.

I am also learning sanchin but I wouldn't say I "know" it yet. It is also post-shodan.

To reach 1st black I still need to learn pinan 4 and 5, and katas 3,4,5. Of course at that time I will be ahead of the game because I will have the 1st & 2nd dan kata memorized (I say memorized because I am sure that there are nuances to them that I will am missing now)

So, I think about 10 is a good number

 

[IWishToLearn]

I've studied several systems - with various amounts of forms.

Yasashii Do - my level is 2nd Black - I have 23 katas that I've learned the motions for, and maybe four of them I'd consider to have mastered to a degree that I can interpret on the fly multiple explanations and variations of the moves and techniques. I've also had to create my own fighting form in preparation for 3rd Dan.

Tae Kwon Do - Up through Red Belt/1st Black Stripe I've learned 10 poomses - with maybe three or four I could interpret on the fly.

Kenpo - I've recently been promoted to Purple Belt by the IKCA, and our main form is all the techniques linked together in one form. Having not completed all the techniques I can't even come close to interpreting this one yet.

I've done lots of forms, not many I regularly practice. I have a couple that for whatever reason are near & dear to my heart and fit my fighting philosophy, outside of those couple I have to really discipline myself to practice the rest.

 

[PictonMA]

Quality before quantity.

Learn one kata and perform it well before you move on to the next.

I don't care if your system has one kata or twenty, if you can't learn one and do it fairly well then should you really be learning another?

I can appreicate learning a few 'beginner' kata, but beyond that having 50 kata in your system is kind of pointless if you aren't doing them worth a damn.

 

[Autocrat]

... How many kata is too many kata? ...
Not wanting to be esoteric or sound a little odd... but you might want to rephrase the question and ask it of yoursefl....

"how many kata is too many kata for me?"

It's not just about the MA, Style or Club.... it's also down to the practioner....
Our club has around 10 Core Kata (including kihon stuff) to reach Dan, but there are additional ones we practice for fun... from various other styles of karate and even Tai Chi, Saido, Kung Fu etc.....
Yet everyone is encouraged to practice their "favourite(s)"... I prefer Pinan, Sanchin and Nai Han Chi ...... so I practice those three alot.

If you look to the "old Masters", most only had a couple, and practiced those thoroughly..... and became incrediably diverse with those few Kata....
Just because a system has multiple doesn't mean you should have to learn multiple.... you use them for grading, you "must" use them for learning..... yet you take the most from those you prefer, and it will be (should be) those that you fall back on in a fight..... You'd be amazed at what is in a simple form.... I love Pinan Nidan due to the fact that it works for strikes, throws and a bit of grappling/groundwork, it also suits medium and small forms of kobudo. I can quite happily spend 30 minutes working on that kata and the bunkai!

So...... try asking yourself the questions....
How many is to many for me?
Why that amount?
Which would I choose to practice over others?
Why would I choose those?
What will I get, (give myself), from those Kata?
Do the Kata differ, are there enough techniques to get me by, and not to many to stiffle reflex training?

Answer those questions yourself, and you'll not only be happier, but also find yourself training better, and, if it's important to you, you'll also have the correct answer!

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

I know a guy who practiced several VERSIONS of ONE KATA. He practices Kushanku Dai, Kushanku Sho, Shiho Kosokun and Chatan Yara Kushanku. I think he is doing an overkill. I mean, one kushanku is enough, am I right?

 

[kenpojujitsu]

If you do so many kata that you are getting them confused,
or
you are not spending enough time on each and the quality suffers at the expense of quantity,

then you are doing to many kata.

It is better to know/do a few kata well than many kata poorly. But better to do many kata well than a few well.

 

[Cirdan]

How many kata is too many? I guess it depends on how it is trained.

Kobudo tend to be kata heavy (four for each weapon with two sides each?)but with the two person kata you also have the chanse to train reaction and adaption to your opponent.
The club where I train karate uses a total of 20 kata. A high number perhaps, but 2 of them are very simple ones for beginners and 9 others are taught at black belt level and avove.
I also train at a Ju Jutsu school wich uses no kata at all. Most of the time here is spent doing two person drills and combinations.

 

[marlon]

Can you tell me if Kenpo is different? Is it a general practice to teach applications for the movements in kata? And if so, in general, how quickly are they taught and for what percentage of the kata?


In American kenpo from my understanding the forms are a string of techniques thast are also taught outside of kata



First, as I am really interested in kata application, I would like to know. Second, if applications are learned, it really reinforces your statement that if you throw a kata out, then you are throwing out useful technique that needs to be replaced.

I argue that in most karate systems, the unfortunate truth is that good applications are rarely taught for kata movements, and therefore, if you throw out a kata, you really don't have to replace it, because it wasn't providing anything that needed replacing.

From my experience in Shaolin kempo, basic descriptions of movements were taught as techniques. This is very limitinmg and can get you terribly hurt in a real situation. Since i began teaching i have really learned to see in the forms concepts, turns, angles, throws, breaks, motion, timing, distance etc that need to be taught better. That i will venture to say cannot be taught better outside of forms/ kata practice. This became even more apparent after learning Naihanchi kata from Soke Cuevas. As my understanding greew in this form it began to translate to all my training including forms and techniques. I found things in techniques that i did not see before. i learned the how of pulling things off from my forms. To be sure i worked the bag and against a resisting opponent attacking mer with whatevber they felt like. At first it was difficult but the more i learned from my forms the more i could pull off things the first time around wit hrelative ease. each time i find a weak area i can find the answer in the kata i already have...then i search out training partners and teachers and people omn this forum to verify or not my understanding. There is no real ability without understanding or visa versa. However, now learning a new form is easier and i can focus in on the new concept it teaches more easily b/c i know a few other forms very well.

I thuink all forms must be run through almost every day...although 80 is a scary number, but take the time to focus in on one or two for months. the benefits are exponentional.
Oh yes i find "or" a very good word when learning/teaching/understanding application of forms...and set techniques



On top of that, the common practice of doing these kata 50-100 times a
year makes any hope of practical use very unlikely.

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[marlon]

Forgive me Sensei,
does not kusanku contain all of the pinan concepts and techniques? At least this was an understanding given to me...i do not have kusanku, but pinan 1 to 5

Respectfully,
Marlon...

I might be able to help with some ideas from Pinan Shodan, and Yondan, Naihanchi Shodan and Kusanku. I have some ideas on video that you might find useful.[/quote]

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Yes Kusanku and Kanku Dai same kata basically performed slightly different does contain pretty much everything from the Pinan / Heian series. My research if I remember correctly Itosu Sensei created the Pinan series from Kunsanku.

 

[Explorer]

I was just at a seminar working on Pinan 3. The instructor there gave this history ... sort of ... I'm doing it from memory.

Itosu Sensei created the Pinan's 1, 3, 4 and 5. Apparently, he needed the permission of his master to develop kata. So, he created Pinan 1, showed it to his master and requested the master develop the other kata. The master created Pinan 2 then told Itosu to finish the rest, viola ... permission.

Another kata in addition to Kusanku was mentioned ... can't remember the name.

 

[Explorer]

As far as the basic question is concerned, I think it's up to the practioner. A friend of mine, in his mid 60s, is a sixth dan. He travels to Okinawa every year for six weeks to train with the master of his system. He knows nearly 30 kata, but practices only 6 seriously.

I know somewhere in the vicinity of 20 kata but currently practice 12. I tend to string them all together as one long kata. It's really fun, the people at Gold's Gym think I'm a Tai Chi master.

 

[pstarr]

Each individual kata is a complete fighting system unto itself. You could conceivably spend a lifetime training just one kata.

The number of kata isn't what matters. It's what you put into and subsequently get out of it/them.

My teacher said that the forms are the books which contain all relevant information about a particular system. But first you have to learn how to spell and read the words (inidividual techniques), and then how to put them together in intelligible phrases that makes sense (combinations of techniques that work well together).
Then you start with a basic "book" and study it.

 

[Cirdan]

I was just at a seminar working on Pinan 3. The instructor there gave this history ... sort of ... I'm doing it from memory.

Itosu Sensei created the Pinan's 1, 3, 4 and 5. Apparently, he needed the permission of his master to develop kata. So, he created Pinan 1, showed it to his master and requested the master develop the other kata. The master created Pinan 2 then told Itosu to finish the rest, viola ... permission.

Another kata in addition to Kusanku was mentioned ... can't remember the name.

I think I heard something about a "forgotten" kata named Channan also influencing the Pinan series. Anyone know more about this?

 

[stone_dragone]

I teach 18 open hand forms and 3 staff forms to black belt. I teach:

-Two variations on the Takioku forms
-The Heian series
-Two Gekasai forms
-Sanchin
-Saifa
-Bassai
-Kanku
-Seyunchin -
-Jion
-Tekki/Naihanchi shodan... and...
-two forms from the Kwanmu Zendokai system (Kwanmu Shodan and Nidan).

After Black belt I teach Wankan, Hangetsu and Chung Mu.

 

[Explorer]

I think I heard something about a "forgotten" kata named Channan also influencing the Pinan series. Anyone know more about this?

THAT'S IT! Channan was the other kata mentioned as another potential source for the Pinans. And ... no, I don't know anything about it.