How Effective Is Bodybuilding For Self Defence?

[Gerry Seymour]

I can't recall where, and it's too early for me to dig around, but I could swear I've read articles/studies on flexibility that suggest it, like many things, is significantly impacted by genetics. Not to say that you can't improve it with effort, but some people are inherently more flexible, and will be able to maintain or increase their flexibility fairly easily. Some will lack flexibility and will need to work very hard for minimal gains.

I've read something similar (with zero recall of where). Like other areas, it's likely a matter of degree, though with a pretty wide range. So, given how un-flexible my legs have always been (in spite of years of stretching in soccer and MA), I probably have some bad genetics in the mix, and would never be as flexible as some of my training partners were with little effort. Of course, a "me" that worked more on flexibility would be more flexible, and a "me" that did more bodybuilding back in the day would likely be less flexible.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Hyper mobility may be connected to propensity of injury to fasciae and interstitial tissues. 2 general surgeons I work with have offered anecdotal evidence to support this idea. If I find the study I will post it.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

And how do you power the rotation of your torso?

Legs man!

 

[Dirty Dog]

I can't recall where, and it's too early for me to dig around, but I could swear I've read articles/studies on flexibility that suggest it, like many things, is significantly impacted by genetics. Not to say that you can't improve it with effort, but some people are inherently more flexible, and will be able to maintain or increase their flexibility fairly easily. Some will lack flexibility and will need to work very hard for minimal gains.

I've read something similar (with zero recall of where). Like other areas, it's likely a matter of degree, though with a pretty wide range. So, given how un-flexible my legs have always been (in spite of years of stretching in soccer and MA), I probably have some bad genetics in the mix, and would never be as flexible as some of my training partners were with little effort. Of course, a "me" that worked more on flexibility would be more flexible, and a "me" that did more bodybuilding back in the day would likely be less flexible.

You are correct. Genetics absolutely play a role is someones flexibility. It's probably most accurate to say that genes will influence your range of flexibility, and training will determine where in your range you will be. So you can improve your flexibility, but maybe not as much as you'd like.
Everyone can improve their flexibility, but not everyone can be as rubbery as Bill Wallace.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Nope

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I

Ok, I guess I wouldn’t describe it so much as a kick off the ground as a push. But my point is, you are still engaging physical strength to do this, you just do the work with the legs and less with the arms and shoulders. More efficient. But some baseline of strength is still important in the arms and torso that works together with the legs and the torso rotation, as well as simply needs to be rugged enough to survive the impact when the strike lands. The strongest torso rotation possible is no good if the wrists and arms and shoulders collapse in injury upon impact.

I pull with the foot against the ground, rather than push. Like a car tire pulls against the ground.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Hyper mobility may be connected to propensity of injury to fasciae and interstitial tissues. 2 general surgeons I work with have offered anecdotal evidence to support this idea. If I find the study I will post it.

Google Hypermobility spectrum disorder. Associated with a number of common maladies, notably, hernia, pelvic floor collapse, ACL rupture, joint dislocation, and rectal prolapse. You can keep your double jointedness, I will keep my parts in place, please and thank you!

 

[Alan0354]

Physical strength does not necessarily mean you have tons of muscle. Bruce Lee was one of the people who proved this. The guy was physically strong enough to do dragon flags and one-handed pushups. But he wasn't built like a locomotive

But he is only about 140lbs soaking wet.

If you throw a punch in perfect form and land it perfectly, you don't need a lot of strength and you don't need a lot of muscle. But in real fight, situation seldom is perfect, that's where you need brute strength and muscle. If you watch the UFC heavy weight fight ( they just showed like two days ago), the guy can knock out the opponent while retreating and no time to rotate the waist, set up, good shoulder movement and all. He just dropped the guy cold throwing out a punch in bad form. Those are pure muscle and strength.

It is also true if you obtain an arm bar or some choke, you don't need a lot of strength to break the joint or break the neck. But while you are getting there, you struggle to get in place, and the opponent struggle, it is pure strength and muscle that get you there to do the arm bar and chokes.

Muscle and strength is very important, real fight is not like demonstration where you already get to the perfect position and only need very little strength to knock out, break the joint or break the neck of someone.

I practice Judo before, they always say it doesn't take strength to throw the person down. BS!!! It takes a lot of strength to tussle and pull the opponent in before you throw them down. In one belt test, my opponent was scared of me as I was heavy. He didn't even try to throw me, he just stiff arm me and kept me at a distance. I couldn't pull him in or push him and trip him. Turned out to be a draw. If I have big muscle and strong, I could just out pull him and pulled him in, that would be an easy throw.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

he just stiff arm me and kept me at a distance. I couldn't pull him in or push him and trip him. Turned out to be a draw. If I have big muscle and strong, I could just out pull him and pulled him in, that would be an easy throw.

To break apart a stiff arms hold doesn't require big muscle but technique - tearing. Technique is like to find the right key to open the right lock. With the right key, you can open the lock with little effort.

 

[Alan0354]

To break apart a stiff arms hold doesn't require big muscle but technique - tearing.

There are rules in Judo, you cannot just do anything.

It's so easy to talk. Do it in real life is totally different. You need strength to get into position, you cannot just assume the opponent is moron. If they know defense, it will make it so much harder to get to the right position. During the interim, it likely to be muscle that make of break the situation.

Like I said about fight between Royce Gracie and Matt Huges, Gracie just don't have the strength to prevent Huges from flatten him out. It's so obvious if you watch the match. It's raw strength to tussle for position. All the technique of Royce Gracie did not help him. He got TKO the first round, it's wasn't even a close fight. Huges just over power him, period. That was a really sad ending to Gracie. Old school, didn't believe in strength training. He got no muscle. He's lucky the referee stopped the fight, or else it would really get ugly and humiliating.

As much as I like cane fight and MA, I still spend half of my workout on weight lifting. If I have to choose one or the other, it's a no brainer, I drop MA in a heart beat.



Ha ha, it would be very educational to have an UFC fight, get the best UFC fighter at 140lbs against an average 180lbs UFC fighter, make sure they are same height. Let them fight and see what happen. I bet it won't last half a round and the best 140lbs one will get KO.

 

[Oily Dragon]

There are rules in Judo, you cannot just do anything.

It's so easy to talk. Do it in real life is totally different. You need strength to get into position, you cannot just assume the opponent is moron. If they know defense, it will make it so much harder to get to the right position. During the interim, it likely to be muscle that make of break the situation.

Like I said about fight between Royce Gracie and Matt Huges, Gracie just don't have the strength to prevent Huges from flatten him out. It's so obvious if you watch the match. It's raw strength to tussle for position. All the technique of Royce Gracie did not help him. He got TKO the first round, it's wasn't even a close fight. Huges just over power him, period. That was a really sad ending to Gracie. Old school, didn't believe in strength training. He got no muscle. He's lucky the referee stopped the fight, or else it would really get ugly and humiliating.

As much as I like cane fight and MA, I still spend half of my workout on weight lifting. If I have to choose one or the other, it's a no brainer, I drop MA in a heart beat.



Ha ha, it would be very educational to have an UFC fight, get the best UFC fighter at 140lbs against an average 180lbs UFC fighter, make sure they are same height. Let them fight and see what happen. I bet it won't last half a round and the best 140lbs one will get KO.

40 lbs? That's not much more than a few steaks.

Think bigger.

 

[Alan0354]

40 lbs? That's not much more than a few steaks.

Think bigger.

Those UFC fighters are fit even though they are just average, that's pretty much 40lbs extra muscles. It's a huge difference. Different dimension of strength.

I have no doubt the small guy will dance around and hit the bigger guy left and right first, but all it takes is one good punch from the big guy and the small guy goes flying.

you go to mid-heavy weight of 200lbs, that would be cruel.

 

[BrendanF]

Ha ha, it would be very educational to have an UFC fight, get the best UFC fighter at 140lbs against an average 180lbs UFC fighter, make sure they are same height. Let them fight and see what happen. I bet it won't last half a round and the best 140lbs one will get KO.

You seen any of the first UFCs?

 

[Alan0354]

You seen any of the first UFCs?

Yes, I know you are going to say Royce Gracie beat up the bigger guy at the beginning. That was because they strikers did not know anything about grappling. It was a total surprise to the strikers. Just like you take a small martial artist facing a bigger guy that doesn't know how to fight. Of cause the small MA guy likely win. Gracie sure looked pitiful at the last fight with Matt Huge.

BUT, if the bigger know something about grappling, Gracie is going to have a hard time winning. One CANNOT assume the opponent doesn't know how to fight. I know a lot of people like to talk like that. BUT if all else equal, more strength is going to win.

In fact technique doesn't have to be equal, as long as the big guy know enough, the brute strength gives a lot of advantage for the lack of technique. Anyone doesn't think so is kidding themselves.

Once the wrestler realize their grappling and ground game is very effective, all the wrestlers join. Gracie might be clever not to fight after UFC4, he would have a hard time facing Dan Severn, Mark Coleman just a few months later.

 

[tim po]

Bruce Lee weighed 127lbs at the peak of his career. it's all about the BONES. he had a small skeleton, it would have been useless for him to gain much more weight.

muscles are enveloped in sheaths of tissue that coalesce into tendon, which then attach to the skeleton. the bigger the bones, the more real estate is available to attach tissue, the more functional muscle a body can carry. exceed your bodies carrying capacity, the extra muscle is a liability. build muscle too fast, you damage the fascia.

strength = the ability to apply force to a given task. what are you training to be strong at? is a gymnast stronger than a swimmier? on parrallel bars, yes. not in the water.

mass moving at speed= power, but you need strength to get mass moving fast.

if you flex your muscles tight, you can't move, you have to be relaxed. if you are still relaxed when you strike, it won't hurt. it is more important to be able to move instantly from fluid and relaxed to contacting the muscles at once in the moment of impact, then you must be able to relax completely again, just as instantly. it is easier to train this ability with body weight excersizes and isometric contraction, which Bruce Lee also knew.

appearances are for the insecure. don't forget, you get old one day. want to still be able to defend yourself, when you are too old to train weights anymore? take it slow.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There are rules in Judo, you cannot just do anything.

It's so easy to talk. Do it in real life is totally different. You need strength to get into position, you cannot just assume the opponent is moron. If they know defense, it will make it so much harder to get to the right position. During the interim, it likely to be muscle that make of break the situation.

Like I said about fight between Royce Gracie and Matt Huges, Gracie just don't have the strength to prevent Huges from flatten him out. It's so obvious if you watch the match. It's raw strength to tussle for position. All the technique of Royce Gracie did not help him. He got TKO the first round, it's wasn't even a close fight. Huges just over power him, period. That was a really sad ending to Gracie. Old school, didn't believe in strength training. He got no muscle. He's lucky the referee stopped the fight, or else it would really get ugly and humiliating.

As much as I like cane fight and MA, I still spend half of my workout on weight lifting. If I have to choose one or the other, it's a no brainer, I drop MA in a heart beat.



Ha ha, it would be very educational to have an UFC fight, get the best UFC fighter at 140lbs against an average 180lbs UFC fighter, make sure they are same height. Let them fight and see what happen. I bet it won't last half a round and the best 140lbs one will get KO.

At 40lbs difference, there will be more than muscle that comes into play. The sheer mass matters (affects power in punching, as well as several aspects of grappling - both standing and ground). Then there's reach - at that big a difference, there's usually a significant difference in height. So, yes, it would go badly for the lighter guy, but that's not entirely about muscle. Strength matters, but it's not a raw determining factor.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yes, I know you are going to say Royce Gracie beat up the bigger guy at the beginning. That was because they strikers did not know anything about grappling. It was a total surprise to the strikers. Just like you take a small martial artist facing a bigger guy that doesn't know how to fight. Of cause the small MA guy likely win. Gracie sure looked pitiful at the last fight with Matt Huge.

BUT, if the bigger know something about grappling, Gracie is going to have a hard time winning. One CANNOT assume the opponent doesn't know how to fight. I know a lot of people like to talk like that. BUT if all else equal, more strength is going to win.

In fact technique doesn't have to be equal, as long as the big guy know enough, the brute strength gives a lot of advantage for the lack of technique. Anyone doesn't think so is kidding themselves.

Once the wrestler realize their grappling and ground game is very effective, all the wrestlers join. Gracie might be clever not to fight after UFC4, he would have a hard time facing Dan Severn, Mark Coleman just a few months later.

I have noticed that these conversations always devolve into a ufc discussion. I’m not training to fight in ufc, and neither are any of the people in these conversations here. I doubt that anyone will be attacked on the street by ufc fighters because they are busy training in the gym. If you are talking competition, the ref and rules are there as a safety net. In real life, it happens in a split second. In real life, you don’t get options. I’m not worried about what this mma guy does or how much that ufc guy lifts. I especially don’t give a hoot about fantasy fights that involve Bruce Lee. Why is it that this poor guy is a benchmark for every conversation? He was a great actor, a great athlete, and is respected. Unless I’m wrong (please correct me if I am) No one here is comparable to these pro fighters and famous athletes. My point is that when the whole thread turns into hypothetical arguments about famous or dead people doing martial arts in some contrived situation, none of that is useful or applicable to us normal people that practice martial arts as a part of life. Feet on the ground is much more nutritious, I much prefer to hear about, and discuss what YOU real living everyday martial artists do. YOUR stories and experiences have real value to me.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have noticed that these conversations always devolve into a ufc discussion. I’m not training to fight in ufc, and neither are any of the people in these conversations here. I doubt that anyone will be attacked on the street by ufc fighters because they are busy training in the gym. If you are talking competition, the ref and rules are there as a safety net. In real life, it happens in a split second. In real life, you don’t get options. I’m not worried about what this mma guy does or how much that ufc guy lifts. I especially don’t give a hoot about fantasy fights that involve Bruce Lee. Why is it that this poor guy is a benchmark for every conversation? He was a great actor, a great athlete, and is respected. Unless I’m wrong (please correct me if I am) No one here is comparable to these pro fighters and famous athletes. My point is that when the whole thread turns into hypothetical arguments about famous or dead people doing martial arts in some contrived situation, none of that is useful or applicable to us normal people that practice martial arts as a part of life. Feet on the ground is much more nutritious, I much prefer to hear about, and discuss what YOU real living everyday martial artists do. YOUR stories and experiences have real value to me.

Yeah but what about Bruce Lee vs Godzilla

my taijiquan shifu is more than 6 inches shorter than I am, is about half my weight and over 20 years older than I am. He never seemed to have much problem toss me around like a ragdoll and knocking me to the floor with the greatest of ease while he appears calm and relaxed

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yeah but what about Bruce Lee vs Godzilla

my taijiquan shifu is more than 6 inches shorter than I am, is about half my weight and over 20 years older than I am. He never seemed to have much problem toss me around like a ragdoll and knocking me to the floor with the greatest of ease while he appears calm and relaxed

That’s what I’m talking about! I’m 6’2” 215lbs. My Sifu was 6’5” 260 lbs. he was lightning fast and extremely gentle with people. He could create intense pain with almost no effort, but rarely did. He cared for us students as if we were his own children. He never let us get too full of ourselves, and always kept us grounded in reality. I can never forget him effortlessly picking me off the ground by my head (thumbs under my jaw And huge fingers latched onto my skull.)

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yeah but what about Bruce Lee vs Godzilla

my taijiquan shifu is more than 6 inches shorter than I am, is about half my weight and over 20 years older than I am. He never seemed to have much problem toss me around like a ragdoll and knocking me to the floor with the greatest of ease while he appears calm and relaxed

Bruce Lee could have saved Tokyo from Godzilla by using that one choke technique in ufc #3,546.