How Effective Is Bodybuilding For Self Defence?

[Steve]

Have you guys seen some of the dudes in the NFL? They may not be faster the the elite level sprinters, but they are screaming fast… and big… and strong. Talking linebackers running 40 yards in less than 5 seconds.

 

[BrendanF]

No one likes to admit it, but all the muscles that boxers and fighters have are usually for show or aesthetic reasons - it strokes the ego. Sure, abdominals are great for protecting the stomach and vitals, but unless you're wrestling or grappling, there's not much advantage to getting big for a striking fight.

It's just not that simple. Muscle is absolutely essential for speed; there is a reason that the fastest people in the world are muscular:

Those muscles are not for aesthetic reasons - they are what make these people the fastest humans to ever live.

There is also a reason that endurance athletes do not carry as much muscle. At a certain point weight and strength become a hindrance in endurance activity. Thus a balance is required.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Muscles do slow you down because they are not responsible for how fast you strike. Take Bruce Lee or Ryan Garcia, they are extremely slim in comparison to heavyweight boxers, bodybuilders, etc. But they are much faster. Usually, there are two avenues for achieving striking force. Technique factors in too, but I am talking about speed or mass. Kamaru Usman holds the world record for the hardest punch in the world, but he's not as fast as either Garcia or Lee.

No one likes to admit it, but all the muscles that boxers and fighters have are usually for show or aesthetic reasons - it strokes the ego. Sure, abdominals are great for protecting the stomach and vitals, but unless you're wrestling or grappling, there's not much advantage to getting big for a striking fight. It will add to your knockout power, but speed does that too. I personally really aspire to be on the more muscular end, because it is an insecurity of mine. I don't like the idea of being as skinny as I used to be, and I feel that my size and physique made me a very vulnerable target when I was younger both in the ring and outside of it. I also think it looks good, and that muscularity can be used to intimidate opponents. It also gives me confidence.

Regardless, muscles do slow you down and make your gas out quicker in fights too.

Strength matters. If those muscles were only for show, somebody would come along and not bother spending time on that, put the time to better use, and dominate.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Emm...ok. I guess JK van Damme Was not flexible and he did some competition Bodybuilding. Flex wheeler & others.

Flex Wheeler Interview | Idai Makaya Publications & Coaching Services

Exceptions do not disprove the general rule. It is possible to do some bodybuilding and be flexible. In general, bodybuilding (as it was done back then, at least) is not conducive to flexibility. I actually had a couple of bodybuilders explain to me that shortening the muscle was desirable, as it "showed" better. There were bodybuilding techniques designed to develop muscles that were shorter, for that reason.

Add to that the issue of over-isolation. To show a muscle off, it's better if you target it directly in the exercises. So bodybuilders tend to use a lot of isolation, and less multi-group exercise (again, going from what was done back then - this could be different now). That isolation meant support muscles weren't properly recruited. That's just asking for injuries as you use the large muscles to do hard work in grappling (and probably in striking), without the support muscles to stabilize properly.

Quite different in strength training. Because strength training is about the work the body can do, rather than how it looks, ROM and support muscles are given more attention.

 

[Ivan]

Strength matters. If those muscles were only for show, somebody would come along and not bother spending time on that, put the time to better use, and dominate.

Strength matters but not as much in striking. For example, the power of your punches come from the rotation of your torso, not how muscular your arms are.

 

[Hanzou]

Strength matters but not as much in striking. For example, the power of your punches come from the rotation of your torso, not how muscular your arms are.

Yet heavyweight boxers tend to have rather massive arms....

Bodybuilding is quite important in self defense, because if you look like a Dwayne Johnson, or Xena: Warrior Princess, the chances are the bad guys are going to leave you alone.

 

[Steve]

Exceptions do not disprove the general rule. It is possible to do some bodybuilding and be flexible. In general, bodybuilding (as it was done back then, at least) is not conducive to flexibility. I actually had a couple of bodybuilders explain to me that shortening the muscle was desirable, as it "showed" better. There were bodybuilding techniques designed to develop muscles that were shorter, for that reason.

Add to that the issue of over-isolation. To show a muscle off, it's better if you target it directly in the exercises. So bodybuilders tend to use a lot of isolation, and less multi-group exercise (again, going from what was done back then - this could be different now). That isolation meant support muscles weren't properly recruited. That's just asking for injuries as you use the large muscles to do hard work in grappling (and probably in striking), without the support muscles to stabilize properly.

Quite different in strength training. Because strength training is about the work the body can do, rather than how it looks, ROM and support muscles are given more attention.

I can't recall where, and it's too early for me to dig around, but I could swear I've read articles/studies on flexibility that suggest it, like many things, is significantly impacted by genetics. Not to say that you can't improve it with effort, but some people are inherently more flexible, and will be able to maintain or increase their flexibility fairly easily. Some will lack flexibility and will need to work very hard for minimal gains.

 

[Flying Crane]

Strength matters but not as much in striking. For example, the power of your punches come from the rotation of your torso, not how muscular your arms are.

And how do you power the rotation of your torso?

 

[Ivan]

And how do you power the rotation of your torso?

You rotate faster

 

[Ivan]

Yet heavyweight boxers tend to have rather massive arms....

Bodybuilding is quite important in self defense, because if you look like a Dwayne Johnson, or Xena: Warrior Princess, the chances are the bad guys are going to leave you alone.

In self defense, yes. In fighting it's a different matter. And the type of fighting matters too.

 

[Steve]

You rotate faster

What makes you rotate faster? I think it's a can of spinach.

 

[Steve]

It's just not that simple. Muscle is absolutely essential for speed; there is a reason that the fastest people in the world are muscular:

Those muscles are not for aesthetic reasons - they are what make these people the fastest humans to ever live.

There is also a reason that endurance athletes do not carry as much muscle. At a certain point weight and strength become a hindrance in endurance activity. Thus a balance is required.

To punctuate the point, DK Metcalf is on the Seahawks. He's a wide receiver... and huge. He's listed as 6'4" tall and about 230lbs, and is about the same size as the linebackers . He didn't quite qualify for the Olympic trials, but he ran 100 meters in 10.37 seconds. Difference in speed between him and the guys who qualified was about 3/10ths of a second.

DK Metcalf impresses in 100 with a 10.37 but falls short of Olympic Trials

Metcalf finished 15th out of 17 in the prelims, but turned in a time that appeared to surprise the announcers, including four-time Olympic medalist Ato Bolden.

www.seattletimes.com

 

[Flying Crane]

You rotate faster

How do you power that rotation?

 

[Ivan]

How do you power that rotation?

You kick off the ground

 

[Hanzou]

In self defense, yes. In fighting it's a different matter. And the type of fighting matters too.

Kind of hard to defend yourself if you can't fight. In addition, if someone is punching me in the chest, and my chest is solid muscle, my chances of getting hurt by the blows are decreased. On the flip side, if someone tries to tackle me and I can bench press hundreds of pounds, I can probably toss that person aside like a child.

In short, strength matters. It actually matters a lot.

 

[Ivan]

Kind of hard to defend yourself if you can't fight. In addition, if someone is punching me in the chest, and my chest is solid muscle, my chances of getting hurt by the blows are decreased. On the flip side, if someone tries to tackle me and I can bench press hundreds of pounds, I can probably toss that person aside like a child.

In short, strength matters. It actually matters a lot.

I did mention it matters in grappling situations. But in striking, muscle on your chest doesn't help. Almost none of the places people or fighters target are protected by muscle. Solar plexus, chest cavity, jaw, nose... None of those are protected by chest muscle. Furthermore, it is possible to be strong without being big. Hypertrophy doesn't completely equate to strength.

 

[Flying Crane]

You kick off the ground

Ok, I guess I wouldn’t describe it so much as a kick off the ground as a push. But my point is, you are still engaging physical strength to do this, you just do the work with the legs and less with the arms and shoulders. More efficient. But some baseline of strength is still important in the arms and torso that works together with the legs and the torso rotation, as well as simply needs to be rugged enough to survive the impact when the strike lands. The strongest torso rotation possible is no good if the wrists and arms and shoulders collapse in injury upon impact.

 

[Ivan]

Ok, I guess I wouldn’t describe it so much as a kick off the ground as a push. But my point is, you are still engaging physical strength to do this, you just do the work with the legs and less with the arms and shoulders. More efficient. But some baseline of strength is still important in the arms and torso that works together with the legs and the torso rotation, as well as simply needs to be rugged enough to survive the impact when the strike lands. The strongest torso rotation possible is no good if the wrists and arms and shoulders collapse in injury upon impact.

Physical strength does not necessarily mean you have tons of muscle. Bruce Lee was one of the people who proved this. The guy was physically strong enough to do dragon flags and one-handed pushups. But he wasn't built like a locomotive

 

[Flying Crane]

Physical strength does not necessarily mean you have tons of muscle. Bruce Lee was one of the people who proved this. The guy was physically strong enough to do dragon flags and one-handed pushups. But he wasn't built like a locomotive

I understand this. Physical strength does not need to equate to big and bulky. But physical strength is still an important factor in landing a powerful strike. It isn’t the only factor or even the most important one. But it still matters.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Strength matters but not as much in striking. For example, the power of your punches come from the rotation of your torso, not how muscular your arms are.

Boxers hit hard - they have to. Good boxers are pretty much universally muscular. They need support muscle in the arms for form (to support the power delivery) and strength in the torso to power the punch. Strength in the legs aids movement and reduces the chance that leg fatigue becomes a factor (though I suspect that latter is less an issue in self-defense situations, as they are unlikely to last the equivalent of several rounds).