How Effective Is Bodybuilding For Self Defence?

[Xue Sheng]

That’s what I’m talking about! I’m 6’2” 215lbs. My Sifu was 6’5” 260 lbs. he was lightning fast and extremely gentle with people. He could create intense pain with almost no effort, but rarely did. He cared for us students as if we were his own children. He never let us get too full of ourselves, and always kept us grounded in reality. I can never forget him effortlessly picking me off the ground by my head (thumbs under my jaw And huge fingers latched onto my skull.)

My sifu is about 5'7" and I'm 6'1", and he is over 20 years older than I am

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

My sifu is about 5'7" and I'm 6'1", and he is over 20 years older than I am

Unfortunately both my Sifu and Sigung have passed away. Get all you can from them while they are here, I regret every missed class.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Unfortunately both my Sifu and Sigung have passed away. Get all you can from them while they are here, I regret every missed class.

I have not trained with him in years, he is in his 80s now and when I left I was the last of his old martial arts dinosaurs. All that was left was forms only folks

 

[Alan0354]

At 40lbs difference, there will be more than muscle that comes into play. The sheer mass matters (affects power in punching, as well as several aspects of grappling - both standing and ground). Then there's reach - at that big a difference, there's usually a significant difference in height. So, yes, it would go badly for the lighter guy, but that's not entirely about muscle. Strength matters, but it's not a raw determining factor.

I did specified they have to be same height, which is easy to find, they should be about 5' 10", this is to make sure the reach is comparable. So the difference is the muscle/strength.

 

[Alan0354]

I have noticed that these conversations always devolve into a ufc discussion. I’m not training to fight in ufc, and neither are any of the people in these conversations here. I doubt that anyone will be attacked on the street by ufc fighters because they are busy training in the gym. If you are talking competition, the ref and rules are there as a safety net. In real life, it happens in a split second. In real life, you don’t get options. I’m not worried about what this mma guy does or how much that ufc guy lifts. I especially don’t give a hoot about fantasy fights that involve Bruce Lee. Why is it that this poor guy is a benchmark for every conversation? He was a great actor, a great athlete, and is respected. Unless I’m wrong (please correct me if I am) No one here is comparable to these pro fighters and famous athletes. My point is that when the whole thread turns into hypothetical arguments about famous or dead people doing martial arts in some contrived situation, none of that is useful or applicable to us normal people that practice martial arts as a part of life. Feet on the ground is much more nutritious, I much prefer to hear about, and discuss what YOU real living everyday martial artists do. YOUR stories and experiences have real value to me.

No, it's about comparing apple to apple. You don't just talk about a trained small guy fighting with an untrained big guy.

Same I can make the case of a lighted weight training guy beat up a heavier guy that has no training what so ever!! You cannot make a case compare one expert to a novice. Of cause the weight training fit guy is going to beat the crap out of the bigger guy with no training. That's not a comparison!!!

To make the case of comparison, you HAVE to compare the comparable trained person, one is bigger and one is smaller.

If you like to, you can compare a talented MA guy that is smaller to a bigger guy trained in the same style but not as good. I bet the weight(muscle, not fat) really makes a difference.



Why are people keep comparing a trained person to a non trained person to make their case??

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I have not trained with him in years, he is in his 80s now and when I left I was the last of his old martial arts dinosaurs. All that was left was forms only folks

That’s a pity. So few of the old guys are left and even fewer who want the old way of training. Where in the world are you? Do you teach?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

No, it's about comparing apple to apple. You don't just talk about a trained small guy fighting with an untrained big guy.

Same I can make the case of a lighted weight training guy beat up a heavier guy that has no training what so ever!! You cannot make a case compare one expert to a novice. Of cause the weight training fit guy is going to beat the crap out of the bigger guy with no training. That's not a comparison!!!

To make the case of comparison, you HAVE to compare the comparable trained person, one is bigger and one is smaller.

If you like to, you can compare a talented MA guy that is smaller to a bigger guy trained in the same style but not as good. I bet the weight(muscle, not fat) really makes a difference.



Why are people keep comparing a trained person to a non trained person to make their case??

I’m not comparing. I think the whole argument is bollocks in the first place. I don’t think any of it matters. Little guys, big guys, who cares? I’m interested in YOU guys. What do YOU do? Each person is far too complex to be put in these silly constructs of big guy vs trained little guy. Unless you are talking about a person you know intimately, with all of the nuance that makes up a person, these arguments are meaningless. One cannot see the mind of a person, and very often, that is the factor that carries the day.

 

[Xue Sheng]

That’s a pity. So few of the old guys are left and even fewer who want the old way of training. Where in the world are you? Do you teach?

Northeast USA, NYS, I use to help him teach (mostly push hands and Dao, but I did occasionally help with the rst of it too) and I use to teach at my wife's practice. Will again, but currently recovering from knee replacement so teaching again is still a ways down the road

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Northeast USA, NYS, I use to help him teach and I use to teach at my wife's practice. Will again, but currently recovering from knee replacement so teaching again is still a ways down the road

Well wishes for your healing.

 

[Steve]

I have noticed that these conversations always devolve into a ufc discussion. I’m not training to fight in ufc, and neither are any of the people in these conversations here. I doubt that anyone will be attacked on the street by ufc fighters because they are busy training in the gym. If you are talking competition, the ref and rules are there as a safety net. In real life, it happens in a split second. In real life, you don’t get options. I’m not worried about what this mma guy does or how much that ufc guy lifts. I especially don’t give a hoot about fantasy fights that involve Bruce Lee. Why is it that this poor guy is a benchmark for every conversation? He was a great actor, a great athlete, and is respected. Unless I’m wrong (please correct me if I am) No one here is comparable to these pro fighters and famous athletes. My point is that when the whole thread turns into hypothetical arguments about famous or dead people doing martial arts in some contrived situation, none of that is useful or applicable to us normal people that practice martial arts as a part of life. Feet on the ground is much more nutritious, I much prefer to hear about, and discuss what YOU real living everyday martial artists do. YOUR stories and experiences have real value to me.

Just speaking for myself here, I find the discussions on training make the most sense when they focus on things that rank and file people can be taught to do reliably on their own. But it's also useful to use famous people as examples, because we can all easily see them executing the techniques.

So, that said, it makes sense that the UFC (or boxing, or other similar things) are used, because we can just pull up the footage and see the same thing. But those examples are only really useful in the context of showing a high level, high pressure instance of something we can all learn to do if we train in a practical way.

Absent common, easily viewed examples, these discussions quickly devolve into "what ifs" and "yeah buts". I hope that makes some sense... I'm multitasking, which is something I don't do well.

 

[Alan0354]

I’m not comparing. I think the whole argument is bollocks in the first place. I don’t think any of it matters. Little guys, big guys, who cares? I’m interested in YOU guys. What do YOU do? Each person is far too complex to be put in these silly constructs of big guy vs trained little guy. Unless you are talking about a person you know intimately, with all of the nuance that makes up a person, these arguments are meaningless. One cannot see the mind of a person, and very often, that is the factor that carries the day.

This IS the subject!!!

If you want to change the subject, by all means.

 

[Alan0354]

Just speaking for myself here, I find the discussions on training make the most sense when they focus on things that rank and file people can be taught to do reliably on their own. But it's also useful to use famous people as examples, because we can all easily see them executing the techniques.

So, that said, it makes sense that the UFC (or boxing, or other similar things) are used, because we can just pull up the footage and see the same thing. But those examples are only really useful in the context of showing a high level, high pressure instance of something we can all learn to do if we train in a practical way.

Absent common, easily viewed examples, these discussions quickly devolve into "what ifs" and "yeah buts". I hope that makes some sense... I'm multitasking, which is something I don't do well.

Agree,

I want to add: To do a comparison( in this case whether muscle is useful), you have to be scientific. Which is to eliminate as much variables as possible. you have to have the two people that are trained, the height is the same so reach is about the same. The variable is one has more muscle, the other has more skill. Then you can compare between skill vs muscle.

I never understand why people keep talking as if one trained compare to someone untrained. Of cause, the trained person is going to win. I can make the case a smaller person that only do weight training and fit but no MA skill, he can beat up a bigger guy that is totally untrained. THIS PROVES NOTHING. Anyone wants to claim more muscle is not useful in MA fighting has to make the case against someone that is not as good, but still with training but more muscles.


Ha ha, I remember when I was a red belt in TKD, there was a big guy a head taller than me came in as a beginner white belt. When we sparred, I could hit him as will, easy meat. BUT.............then after a few months when he got his yellow belt, did I got beat up(figuratively speaking), left and right. I just couldn't get to him, his punching reach is longer than my kicks!!! It was obvious that his skill is not even close to me, but I was just not good enough to overcome his reach.


Back to my UFC 140lbs vs 180lbs case. I am sure in point sparring, the 140lbs champ is going to score much higher than the 180 as the light guy is better and faster. BUT, if it is a real fight that only one gets to walk off the stage, my bet is on the 180.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Just speaking for myself here, I find the discussions on training make the most sense when they focus on things that rank and file people can be taught to do reliably on their own. But it's also useful to use famous people as examples, because we can all easily see them executing the techniques.

So, that said, it makes sense that the UFC (or boxing, or other similar things) are used, because we can just pull up the footage and see the same thing. But those examples are only really useful in the context of showing a high level, high pressure instance of something we can all learn to do if we train in a practical way.

Absent common, easily viewed examples, these discussions quickly devolve into "what ifs" and "yeah buts". I hope that makes some sense... I'm multitasking, which is something I don't do well.

I get it. Just annoys me a tad when it always rolls back to the same ol quotes. My eyes roll up so that I can’t see, I groan and moan in agony. The dust where the dead horse used to be begins to swirl around etc. I can’t help crying out once in a while.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Agree,

I want to add: To do a comparison( in this case whether muscle is useful), you have to be scientific. Which is to eliminate as much variables as possible. you have to have the two people that are trained, the height is the same so reach is about the same. The variable is one has more muscle, the other has more skill. Then you can compare between skill vs muscle.

A sample size of one is never science.

 

[Steve]

A sample size of one is never science.

I've proposed the basic framework for a study... just looking for sponsors to fund it. When you send me that knife, just enclose that first check. Or I can take venmo, cash app, zelle, or paypal.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

This IS the subject!!!

If you want to change the subject, by all means.

I dont mean to offend you. I just have an opinion on the way it’s being discussed. Please accept my apologies if my wording was improper. I stand by the spirit of my statement. I’m interested in how the people here do it or experience it.

 

[Alan0354]

A sample size of one is never science.

You are free to get more samples, at least start with the right approach.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Agree,

I want to add: To do a comparison( in this case whether muscle is useful), you have to be scientific. Which is to eliminate as much variables as possible. you have to have the two people that are trained, the height is the same so reach is about the same. The variable is one has more muscle, the other has more skill. Then you can compare between skill vs muscle.

I never understand why people keep talking as if one trained compare to someone untrained. Of cause, the trained person is going to win. I can make the case a smaller person that only do weight training and fit but no MA skill, he can beat up a bigger guy that is totally untrained. THIS PROVES NOTHING. Anyone wants to claim more muscle is not useful in MA fighting has to make the case against someone that is not as good, but still with training but more muscles.


Ha ha, I remember when I was a red belt in TKD, there was a big guy a head taller than me came in as a beginner white belt. When we sparred, I could hit him as will, easy meat. BUT.............then after a few months when he got his yellow belt, did I got beat up(figuratively speaking), left and right. I just couldn't get to him, his punching reach is longer than my kicks!!! It was obvious that his skill is not even close to me, but I was just not good enough to overcome his reach.


Back to my UFC 140lbs vs 180lbs case. I am sure in point sparring, the 140lbs champ is going to score much higher than the 180 as the light guy is better and faster. BUT, if it is a real fight that only one gets to walk off the stage, my bet is on the 180.

Ok ok but what if the 140 guy has me on a leash leading me around?

 

[Alan0354]

I dont mean to offend you. I just have an opinion on the way it’s being discussed. Please accept my apologies if my wording was improper. I stand by the spirit of my statement. I’m interested in how the people here do it or experience it.

Oh no, I don't take it that way, just a discussion. This thread is about whether more muscle makes a difference.

Peace.

 

[BrendanF]

I want to add: To do a comparison( in this case whether muscle is useful), you have to be scientific. Which is to eliminate as much variables as possible. you have to have the two people that are trained, the height is the same so reach is about the same. The variable is one has more muscle, the other has more skill. Then you can compare between skill vs muscle.

There is an obvious, uncontrolled variable.

'Trained' is not a consistent measure - who decides, and how.. that two people are 'equally trained'? Two people who have been training for exactly the same amount of time are obviously not going to have exactly the same degree of skill. Is someone going to magically 'know' that two people are equally skilled?

It's a frivolous discussion.