How do your forms/katas progress?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by skribs, Feb 11, 2018.

  1. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    agreed.
    in the 1984 the head of the American Uechi- Ryu George Mattson took a group of people to China to dig deeper into the roots of Uechi - Ryu. they didnt find what they were looking for. there was a feeling that combative Kung fu was still very secretive and forbidden. George made a comment that we may have very well met some of the people we were looking for but no one would admit it in public under the eye of the government.
    here is some home video of the trip. at about 1:50 in the are in the public square, notice the dress of everyone there...it is still very much Mao's Communist China.

     
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  2. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yes, it was a very ugly time in China when people spied on their neighbors and people disappeared for not complying with government mandates. Mandates included not training traditional fighting methods.

    There were other, older reasons for secrecy as well, pre-dating the Cultural Revolution. Your fighting skills could actually save your life, so you did not show them to the public or to those you did not trust by very well. It is only in the modern age when our fighting skills are not generally needed to save our lives, when we can feel free to openly share them with the public.

    Some people still have an attitude that “it isn’t for sale” and so feel no need to share it openly. If they don’t want to share it with you, then you simply will not see it. Our culture has a hard time with that, we tend to feel we have the right to get anything we want. It ain’t so.
     
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  3. Midnight-shadow

    Midnight-shadow 3rd Black Belt

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    Yeah I couldn't be bothered going through all the shaolin dao forms waving flimsy pretend swords around and so settled on the first video that vaguely resembled what I meant. Even though it is Korean, the movements are very similar to the dao form I learned.

    I haven't seen any evidence of Jian being used by soldiers at all, even by officers. I always assumed Jian were the Chinese equivalent of European Rapiers, used by upper class gentlemen for self-defence and dueling but rarely used on the battlefield. I believe the Jian and Dao forms were created afterwards to reflect their usual purpose.
     
  4. hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

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    i am not sure i follow what you are saying here. let me explain how i see abstraction.
    as example ....in the kata there may be a left hand upward rising action. this could be utilized for a wide variety of things. so i could agree it may have a link to improvisation but the action, by not defining it, is an abstraction of movement. it could be seven or more different things. but the principal of movement is the same across all of these many applications so the lesson in the abstraction is not "when this happens do this move" but rather this is how the unit of the body should work for actions like this one. the abstraction points to the principal not the application.

    EDIT: but then how would you know what was application and what was abstract principal unless your where one of the select few who was taught "The secrets"
     
  5. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    I don't think you are being condescending. It's something I've struggled with. Even when I look at the other forms, and I see more than just punches and kicks, I see grappling moves...but not much more than that.

    I do wish I connected to the forms themselves a bit better. However, the forms are not the entirety of the curriculum. We also do punch combinations, kicking techniques, and train scenario-based self defense and Olympic-style sparring. If it was just the forms I'd feel it was lacking.
     
  6. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I saw a book once, can’t remember the title or author, that discussed the difference between civilian and soldier jian. There is an inherent hint in the fact that jian come in a variety of levels of robustness. And I am excluding the Modern Wushu toys from my assessment.
     
  7. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    In my opinion, not all forms are created equally. Some are poorly or superficially designed.

    That is not a criticism aimed at TKD, as I have not studied the method and do not know the forms.

    My forms have a lot of inherent rooting and grounding coupled with technique practice. But of course you need to understand how that works in order to practice it properly. Even the very “best” form could be butchered into superficiality if one does not know how to approach the practice properly.
     
  8. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    What is "rooting and grounding"?
     
  9. Midnight-shadow

    Midnight-shadow 3rd Black Belt

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    Interesting. I guess that makes sense in a way. Do you remember if the book discussed a particular period in history?
     
  10. Hyoho

    Hyoho Black Belt

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    Yes I understand what you mean. With me mostly doing sword arts now its more clearly defined.

    Some founders were good enough to have even written about the philosophical values that we should adopt as well. so our accent has always been on preservation. Its essential to learn a fundamental, 'then' add character to it as you advance and not the other way round.
     
  11. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Sorry, I do not remember. Saw it in a bookstore (remember those?) and didn’t buy it for some reason which was strange because I was buying lots of martial arts books at the time.
     
  12. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Understanding how to “dig” your feet into the ground and use the strength of your legs to brace the body and drive torso rotation as a way to power your techniques, and such. It prevents your punches from only being driven by the arm and shoulder, and harnesses the greater strength of the legs and full body.

    Our method relies on that a lot, so we are always doing that in our forms, no matter what else is going on. It is a way of practicing that foundational stuff in a mobile context, which is more difficult than simply throwing the same punch over and over from a static position. so one issue in practicing forms is that it raises the level of difficulty to the next level, as your skill increases. Rooting is easy if it is just one technique. But if you are doing 100 movements in a form where you are stepping for every move, making that adjustment and still being able to root with your technique becomes more difficult.
     
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  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Then we agree on that latter point. Position can change the relative complexity of moves. Like you, I can’t think of many times I’d be in good kicking position after grappling. The mechanics of structure for grappling make it unlikely.
     
  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    You can generate a lot of downward force with the weight drop. Good timing lends that to the punch.
     
  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    If you are both in a low grappling (takedown finish) position, he’ll generate power faster than you.
     
  16. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    why would i be in a low grappling position? . My opoinent is lying on the floor?
     
  17. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Actually, you said pretty much what I meant. Since it’s abstract, it is just training movement patterns for future improvisation. That actually frees it from being tied to a specific application.
     
  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    You just put them there. If by grappling, that often ends with bodyweight low, in either a wide stance or kneeling. That’s far from ideal for getting off a kick.
     
  19. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    This remind me about that time (1984?), I helped Ronald Lindsey (9th Dan) to translate a white crane book for him. Later on he gave me a Japanese stick/sword that I still love it very much. Ronald believed his Karate had strong influence from the Chinese white crane system. That was about 34 years ago.



     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  20. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    my instinct, from hard experiance, is being on the floor is a bad idea, if i end up there its a mistake and one that should quickly be rectified, maintain mobility at all costs. I could certainly take the opportunity to punch him from a kneeling position, but there's not stopping power. In the punch from that position, and his hands are likely in the way, mess up his nose perhaps, but id be better punching th groin if I've got a choice.. So punch , stand up and kick or just stand up and kick, the kicks the man stopper, , so the sooner the better.

    you could certainly find your body position is less than idea for a kick, but the very skill of the soccer kick is adjusting your body position quickly so you can deliver, it matters not if the first kick lays him out, as long as its hard enough to knock the wind out of him, you then have plenty of time to deliver any num.e r of kicks from any position you choose,,
    he is on the floor I'm stood up, that is not going to be allowed to change
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018

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