How appliable is aikido for self-defense?

[Gerry Seymour]

If you are fighting for the realz regardless of it being competition or self defence. then there is more over-commitment. You are also more likley to be more conservative and so not be as able to take advantage of that over-commitment.

So you are more likley to want to knock a guys head off with a big punch. But are less likley to want to risk eating that punch to counter with something clever.

That's certainly true of someone trained, and of someone who is in control of himself. The guy at the bar who decides you've been looking at his girl too long and goes around the bend will often over-commit in bigger ways. The limbic brain is not very good at risk assessment nor risk management, so the part about avoiding the consequences of the over-commitment is left out at that point.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No that is an actual thing. The point of doing a takedown is to force a counter. And the counter sets up the takedown. And why throws are done in combination.

So you will see throw counter repeat a lot.

As Tony has pointed out (and he's done more of that type of sparring/randori than I have), it's rare to run into one of those golden opportunities I refer to as "pure aiki". What you're describing is very true, but their counter is usually controlled enough to make me need leverage or weight dropping or such to move them beyond the recovery point and get the throw that lives beyond the counter. Every now and then, though, you feel that "void" where you know a tiny amount of input just drops them into a hole where they can't recover their balance. It's rare, and gets rarer the more skilled the opponent is.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm curious Gpseymour, is the issue that Aikido was originally taught as a capstone for Judo training, but many modern Aikido practitioners don't learn Judo first? Has that caused a degradation of the art?

I'd be very curious to see what the difference would be between an Aikido black belt with a Judo background, and an Aikido black belt without a Judo background.

Oh, and Hanzou, feel free to call me Gerry. You and I have agreed and disagreed enough that you ought to know my name by now.

 

[drop bear]

As Tony has pointed out (and he's done more of that type of sparring/randori than I have), it's rare to run into one of those golden opportunities I refer to as "pure aiki". What you're describing is very true, but their counter is usually controlled enough to make me need leverage or weight dropping or such to move them beyond the recovery point and get the throw that lives beyond the counter. Every now and then, though, you feel that "void" where you know a tiny amount of input just drops them into a hole where they can't recover their balance. It's rare, and gets rarer the more skilled the opponent is.

See I dont see it as feel so much as a mechanical response. As a science. Not an art.

 

[drop bear]

That's certainly true of someone trained, and of someone who is in control of himself. The guy at the bar who decides you've been looking at his girl too long and goes around the bend will often over-commit in bigger ways. The limbic brain is not very good at risk assessment nor risk management, so the part about avoiding the consequences of the over-commitment is left out at that point.

That is a very simple explanation for what will turn out to be a very complicated motivation.

Eg. street fighting responses.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

See I dont see it as feel so much as a mechanical response. As a science. Not an art.

That spot, though, is one you can't often manufacture. The force/input needed to manufacture it is usually as much as would be needed to do a technique without it, so if it's not there, it's more dependable to go with what I call the "Judo version" of the technique. Equally effective, just not "aiki".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That is a very simple explanation for what will turn out to be a very complicated motivation.

Eg. street fighting responses.

Anger is not so complicated. It's an instinctive activation of the limbic system, and overrides much of the executive function of the prefrontal cortex. The reactions are more predictable, because it's driven by the "reptile brain".

I'm not saying there aren't other motivations for attacks. But that's the most common, and it's usually caused by either some perceived slight, an actual insult, or a real or perceived physical threat. The video shows exactly what I mean. The guy who attacked him was open to a couple of things specifically because he chose an attack that isn't terribly effective. He committed his weight forward, then joined it with the guy he attacked to move him around in a circle to the wall. There are aiki opportunities in that sort of movement that wouldn't be likely in a match.

 

[adadses ginsberg]

Aikido techniques are not unique to the art. They come from karate, jiu jitsu etc. What is unique is the application of ying and yang or aiki. The techniques are therefore used to develop this 'force' and therefore Aikido is not used for fighting or self defence (of course, it can be and you can kick *** with it if you want). When I got to Shodan in Aikido, I had only learnt the techniques, I am only now beginning to learn Aiki. I feel very much like I have walked through the dojo door all over again.

If you want to use Aikido to fight only then practice it in this way. Put sparring gloves on, head guards, you name it and train your Aikido for this end. Believe you me, you will learn to fight with it just like any martial art.

My Aikido can be used to fight and I have used it in real situations but I am 36 years old and have only used it twice in this context and have been in violent altercations a few times in my life. In light of this I don't see the point in learning an art where I get kicked, strangled, punched as I did when I was younger.

 

[the42cop]

Everyone is here having a serious conversation and stuff... And I'm over here secretly thinking the only REAL self defense system out there is this Uber secret, special forces, ninja assassin, Jedi master style!! If you don't prance around a dark gym with a lightsaber you just aren't a true martial artist!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Real Aikido in Action on live video:

The Instinctive Edge

 

[O'Malley]

Looks like shiho nage. He extends the arm then redirects that extension towards uke and takes him down. I can notice the little twist towards his own "center" that finishes to take away uke's balance.

The element of surprise played a big part though.

 

[drop bear]

Real BJJ in action on live video.
The Instinctive Edge

Or is it TKD?

 

[O'Malley]

Do they do it while standing in BJJ?

The way he pulled the arm into extension before redirecting it was in line with what you learn in aikido.

But yes, kote gaeshi (not shiho nage, as I corrected in the other thread) is a form that's seen in a lot of systems (saw it in JJJ, Eskrima, Aikido and Kajukenbo for example).

 

[drop bear]

Do they do it while standing in BJJ?

The way he pulled the arm into extension before redirecting it was in line with what you learn in aikido.

But yes, kote gaeshi (not shiho nage, as I corrected in the other thread) is a form that's seen in a lot of systems (saw it in JJJ, Eskrima, Aikido and Kajukenbo for example).

They definitely do wrist locks standing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do they do it while standing in BJJ?

The way he pulled the arm into extension before redirecting it was in line with what you learn in aikido.

But yes, kote gaeshi (not shiho nage, as I corrected in the other thread) is a form that's seen in a lot of systems (saw it in JJJ, Eskrima, Aikido and Kajukenbo for example).

BJJ has a reasonable standing repertoire. We mostly see the ground game, because they're experts at getting people to the ground so most BJJ matches end up there.

 

[Steve]

BJJ has a reasonable standing repertoire. We mostly see the ground game, because they're experts at getting people to the ground so most BJJ matches end up there.

It's a ground fighting system. Where in MMA, if I am sanding and you are on the mat, the refs will stand you up. in a BJJ match, if I'm on the ground and you are standing, you are the one fleeing combat and will be penalized for failing to engage.

 

[drop bear]

It's a ground fighting system. Where in MMA, if I am sanding and you are on the mat, the refs will stand you up. in a BJJ match, if I'm on the ground and you are standing, you are the one fleeing combat and will be penalized for failing to engage.

There are pure grappling comps that reward standing back up as well.

Otherwise in MMA the primary motivation for standing up is still punching. You just have to be so much better than the guy you are fighting to hang out down there.

 

[Hyoho]

Is this aikido? Not that I would expect the person that did the disarm to move to the front. Not to question what he did. But is it aikido?

Japanese arts deal with things like Sen. Stanley sums up here well.

“Go no Sen” — The Path to Defeat by Stanley Pranin

There has to be committal from an opponent towards you yourself. You then use that committal against them. It "must" be seen, even for a split second. In seeing that physical action it mean they have already committed themselves mentally to a point of no return. Aikido is not the only art that uses this method.

The idea in practice is to try and simulate a real attack. A method that can be speeded up as people become more proficient in dealing with a situation. Ultimately as seen (should be seen) in embu we really attack. Even then we still have the perogative of knowing what is coming.

There are others that use "sen only". Some incorporate it among other methods such as simply attack first feign an attack etc. etc. But sen remains to be the epitome of most of the arts.

The point is if two people confront each other and the one using sen sees no attack? Then there is no conflict. We can all safely go home.

 

[JP3]

Jerry, I just wanted to point something out to you about the apparent perceived difference you have for aikido vs. judo, with apparently more muscle being used in the judo technique than in the aikido technique.

To be "good judo" the technique should happen in a manner which would feel very, very similar to you as an aikido technique done correct, i.e. very little actual "feeling" of what just took place. IF you did it right. The way judo is set up though, e.g. closer positions, hands in positions that tend to assist in outright lifting the opponent at times, structure demolition not just posture breaking, etc... those are more towards the sport side of judo, where the young turbo-power button dudes are playing and going to tournaments, etc. Us old dudes like it to be very.... aiki. IF we can get it there. When someone does in practice, it's cause for celebration, albeit short. ("Man, nice throw! I didn't even feel the entry at all, next thing I know I better find the ground... smooth..."). Like that.

I can crank an aikido technique with wrist and arm power and it will "work," but it isn't "working right," I'm sure you'll agree with that. Same-same. Judo is ... supposed ... to have a very similar.... affect, or feel to it.

But, that's for folks who've been playing judo for more than 20 years, whose fingers are all gnarled up, knees shot, toes ugly, etc, from doing the turbo-power way for too long...

*snort* I resemble that remark.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Is this aikido? Not that I would expect the person that did the disarm to move to the front. Not to question what he did. But is it aikido?

Japanese arts deal with things like Sen. Stanley sums up here well.

“Go no Sen” — The Path to Defeat by Stanley Pranin

There has to be committal from an opponent towards you yourself. You then use that committal against them. It "must" be seen, even for a split second. In seeing that physical action it mean they have already committed themselves mentally to a point of no return. Aikido is not the only art that uses this method.

The idea in practice is to try and simulate a real attack. A method that can be speeded up as people become more proficient in dealing with a situation. Ultimately as seen (should be seen) in embu we really attack. Even then we still have the perogative of knowing what is coming.

There are others that use "sen only". Some incorporate it among other methods such as simply attack first feign an attack etc. etc. But sen remains to be the epitome of most of the arts.

The point is if two people confront each other and the one using sen sees no attack? Then there is no conflict. We can all safely go home.

I don't know whether they were trained in Aikido, but the response is consistent with it. When he grabs the hand, the guy has an initial reaction to pull his arm back, which feeds the "aiki" of the technique. Aikido doesn't require an attack - it requires input from the "attacker".