Helping Students Deal With Bullying

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

The high rate of suicide among ex and serving military has caused the powers that be to worry and demand that anyone with suspected mental health issues be referred to mental health services.

Any ethical therapist would determine after meeting with someone for an intake whether or not they need therapy, and relay that to them. So really what you're complaining about is people, who are not qualified to determine if someone has a mental health issue, too often referring people under them to determine if they have a mental health issue. I fail to see what the issue is with that.

If instead, those therapists are acting unethically and treating people for mental health issues they do not have, that is an issue with the therapist, not the person referring people to that therapist.

 

[oftheherd1]

Any ethical therapist would determine after meeting with someone for an intake whether or not they need therapy, and relay that to them. So really what you're complaining about is people, who are not qualified to determine if someone has a mental health issue, too often referring people under them to determine if they have a mental health issue. I fail to see what the issue is with that.

If instead, those therapists are acting unethically and treating people for mental health issues they do not have, that is an issue with the therapist, not the person referring people to that therapist.

I don't know why so many military might be referred, but I suspect medical doctors have a protocol they are required to follow. See or hear certain things, and a referral is made to the psychology section for their evaluation, since that is out of a medical doctor's area of expertise.

As to why that might be done I don't really know. I would suspect that there is more sensitivity to PTSD, and other conditions that might affect a person's mental health. Good, bad, or no effect, at least the military can say they are sensitive to the possibility of treatment being needed, Unlike in past wars where they don't have such a good reputation of admitting a problem exists, much less trying to diagnose and treat it.

 

[Steve]

I don't know why so many military might be referred, but I suspect medical doctors have a protocol they are required to follow. See or hear certain things, and a referral is made to the psychology section for their evaluation, since that is out of a medical doctor's area of expertise.

As to why that might be done I don't really know. I would suspect that there is more sensitivity to PTSD, and other conditions that might affect a person's mental health. Good, bad, or no effect, at least the military can say they are sensitive to the possibility of treatment being needed, Unlike in past wars where they don't have such a good reputation of admitting a problem exists, much less trying to diagnose and treat it.

Right now, the military has egregiously failed to refer soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines who need help historically. more than that, discouraged them from seeking help... that they are being very careful. And good for them. This idea that stiff upper lip and a stout heart is all it Takes, is very ignorant. As I said, it’s like a 30year outdated mindset.

And I’ve said many times, most people could benefit from counseling. Which is not the same as therapy, and not just for people who are mentally ill. And the sooner we can remove the stigma of it. The better off we will all be as a country, it’s like massage. Not everyone gets it, but you don’t need to be injured to benefit from it, And like a good massage therapist, a good counselor will help you figure out if you need more help than they can offer.

 

[Tez3]

Any ethical therapist would determine after meeting with someone for an intake whether or not they need therapy, and relay that to them. So really what you're complaining about is people, who are not qualified to determine if someone has a mental health issue, too often referring people under them to determine if they have a mental health issue. I fail to see what the issue is with that.

If instead, those therapists are acting unethically and treating people for mental health issues they do not have, that is an issue with the therapist, not the person referring people to that therapist.

No I'm not complaining about people who aren't qualified at all, I explained quite succinctly so please don't decide that I meant something else. there generally feeling is that one needs a therapist for every event in your life that didn't go as you wished. being upset/sad/fed up is a normal part of life, you don't need a counsellor or therapist for everything.

Good, bad, or no effect, at least the military can say they are sensitive to the possibility of treatment being needed

It's putting up your umbrella so that if there's any comeback you are covered, one of the first things we learn in the military lol. SOPs.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

No I'm not complaining about people who aren't qualified at all, I explained quite succinctly so please don't decide that I meant something else. there generally feeling is that one needs a therapist for every event in your life that didn't go as you wished. being upset/sad/fed up is a normal part of life, you don't need a counsellor or therapist for everything.

You explained you think people get sent to therapists too often. But a therapist won't ethically treat someone unless that person needs therapy. So either you don't understand how the therapeutic intake process works (in the US which is where you were complaining about, it may be different in the UK), or your issue is that you think the people qualified to determine if someone needs therapy are incorrect in their decisions.

 

[Dirty Dog]

You explained you think people get sent to therapists too often. But a therapist won't ethically treat someone unless that person needs therapy. So either you don't understand how the therapeutic intake process works (in the US which is where you were complaining about, it may be different in the UK), or your issue is that you think the people qualified to determine if someone needs therapy are incorrect in their decisions.

Actually...
If you send someone to be evaluated, the evaluation is likely to include a whole battery of written tests, among other things.
Interesting thing about those tests...
There is no combination of answers that will lead to a diagnosis of "normal, well adjusted individual." There seems to be a built in assumption that everybody has some psychiatric disorder.

 

[Tez3]

You explained you think people get sent to therapists too often. But a therapist won't ethically treat someone unless that person needs therapy. So either you don't understand how the therapeutic intake process works (in the US which is where you were complaining about, it may be different in the UK), or your issue is that you think the people qualified to determine if someone needs therapy are incorrect in their decisions.

No.

Incorrect. A therapist can treat people they believe has issues but doesn't actually have. As I explained when your dog dies of old age you don't need therapy, when your grand parents pass on at the age of ninety your mourn and celebrate your luge but you don't need therapy. Too many people are deciding that the general population need therapy and counselling over normal things that happen in life. This doesn't mean the therapists are dishonest or acting unethically, it means the fashion for counselling and therapy is out of control. I'm sure a great many people think their children need counselling but don't. Counselling and therapy is big business. Your child could need counselling because they are bullied, abused or have mental health problems they don't need it as a matter of course just because parents see their child being sad, quiet or just less boisterous than others. How many MA instructors here have had children brought into their class because the parent has said they are 'hyperactive' etc when actually the child is quite normal just an active child. Too many people have lost confidence in their own abilities and see counselling and therapy as the answer, an answer many are willing to provide because it also provides a good living. Too many have forgotten that normal human emotions don't need counselling.

Do you actually need someone to tell you this for example? Why do so many people seek therapy?

and there's this Opinion | In Therapy Forever? Enough Already


this says a lot too
"The mother of a Class VII student opined that more often than not children do not require any intervention. "My son has always been shy. But his scores are perfectly fine. Even then the school counselor insisted that there was some problem since he doesn't talk much. Being from the medical fraternity, I have a better idea than other parents and I insisted against it," she said. Her son had recently moved to the school and she says any child would take some time to open up.

A senior member of a Parents-Teachers Association also added, "Parents are generally confused when counselors call them. They don't really know what to do, so they go ahead with the advice of school authorities."

This may have a lot to do with it "While many can afford these services, others are finding it expensive. With a session costing, on an average, Rs 300, many parents are looking at a sizeable amount to pay. According to the counselors, addressing disorders such as ADHD can take anywhere between six months to a year. The sessions for six months can easily cost Rs 15,000-20,000."
From here Our children don’t need counselling, skeptical parents tell city schools - Mumbai Mirror -

Encouraging parent to use therapists and counselling. Things that children genuinely may need help with are mixed in with a lot that they don't need counselling for. Homework stress? Why would we take a child for counselling especially as such an early age to learn problem solving? School and parents are there for that, not paid therapists. Parents are abdicating their responsibilities if they send their children to a counsellor to learn basic human functions, perhaps though they believe what they are told, that as parents they can't know what is best and a (paid) professional has to do it. perhaps if anyone needs a boost in self confidence it's parents. Taking Your Child to a Therapist

 

[Tez3]

The 'experts' who know better than you ( that's me being sarcastic)
Why You Aren't Happily Ever After Anymore

How to Deal With Your Emotionally Neglectful Parents

19 Things You Should Never Say to Kids

Why Men Aren't Really Men Anymore etc. etc. etc. Name a subject and there's experts telling you that you are doing it/thinking about it wrongly.

I'm not saying this Zen Child Discipline in 8 Steps is necessarily bad but do you realise how much advice there is for parents out there, books, programmes, blogs, magazines, websites etc? All the conflicting advice is damaging, everyone wants to give their opinion so now many parents are left thinking their child is screwed up and they have made a mess of everything so off to counselling and therapy is it. Just. No. Keep it for real issues not shyness or not talking much.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No.

Incorrect. A therapist can treat people they believe has issues but doesn't actually have. As I explained when your dog dies of old age you don't need therapy, when your grand parents pass on at the age of ninety your mourn and celebrate your luge but you don't need therapy. Too many people are deciding that the general population need therapy and counselling over normal things that happen in life. This doesn't mean the therapists are dishonest or acting unethically, it means the fashion for counselling and therapy is out of control. I'm sure a great many people think their children need counselling but don't. Counselling and therapy is big business. Your child could need counselling because they are bullied, abused or have mental health problems they don't need it as a matter of course just because parents see their child being sad, quiet or just less boisterous than others. How many MA instructors here have had children brought into their class because the parent has said they are 'hyperactive' etc when actually the child is quite normal just an active child. Too many people have lost confidence in their own abilities and see counselling and therapy as the answer, an answer many are willing to provide because it also provides a good living. Too many have forgotten that normal human emotions don't need counselling.

Do you actually need someone to tell you this for example? Why do so many people seek therapy?

and there's this Opinion | In Therapy Forever? Enough Already


this says a lot too
"The mother of a Class VII student opined that more often than not children do not require any intervention. "My son has always been shy. But his scores are perfectly fine. Even then the school counselor insisted that there was some problem since he doesn't talk much. Being from the medical fraternity, I have a better idea than other parents and I insisted against it," she said. Her son had recently moved to the school and she says any child would take some time to open up.

A senior member of a Parents-Teachers Association also added, "Parents are generally confused when counselors call them. They don't really know what to do, so they go ahead with the advice of school authorities."

This may have a lot to do with it "While many can afford these services, others are finding it expensive. With a session costing, on an average, Rs 300, many parents are looking at a sizeable amount to pay. According to the counselors, addressing disorders such as ADHD can take anywhere between six months to a year. The sessions for six months can easily cost Rs 15,000-20,000."
From here Our children don’t need counselling, skeptical parents tell city schools - Mumbai Mirror -

Encouraging parent to use therapists and counselling. Things that children genuinely may need help with are mixed in with a lot that they don't need counselling for. Homework stress? Why would we take a child for counselling especially as such an early age to learn problem solving? School and parents are there for that, not paid therapists. Parents are abdicating their responsibilities if they send their children to a counsellor to learn basic human functions, perhaps though they believe what they are told, that as parents they can't know what is best and a (paid) professional has to do it. perhaps if anyone needs a boost in self confidence it's parents. Taking Your Child to a Therapist

Nothing is that absolute. Some people do need help when their dog dies. The event isn't what they need help with - it's their reaction to it. Just as some people deal with real trauma in a way that leaves them not needing help, while many people would. Some people, for one reason or another, don't cope as well as others do.

 

[Tez3]

The event isn't what they need help with - it's their reaction to it.

Unless it's an abnormal reaction they don't need counselling for it, they need friends and family. How on earth did the world manage before paid counsellors came along? Everyone copes with things differently but being told that you need to see a 'professional' every time because the way you deal with it isn't thought to be the 'right' way is damaging. It's in the counselling industrie's interest that people lose confidence in their abilities to cope just with the help of friends and family isn't it. When your dear grandmother dies you need to mourn and grieve, taking that away from people by counselling them is wrong. Too many now think you have to be happy all the time, that you have to cope with everything with 'strategies' given to you by a counsellor, there's nothing wrong with throwing yourself on your bed and bawling your eyes out, there's nothing wrong with being sad or nor is there anything wrong with feeling bad about things. It's human nature, it doesn't need to be talked out to a person you are paying, instead sit and chat with your best mate over a few beers, they'll know you better than a therapist anyway. Your best mate gets you drunk, listens to you burbling then puts you to bed and tells you it will be fine, and they're right it will be because that's the 'counselling' you need. Keep professional help for the mental health problems that need it.

 

[Tez3]

Emotions - How To Understand, Identify and Release Your Emotions - M.K. Projects

"Emotions are not the only cause of illness. Little babies and young children get ill, and not always because of their emotional issues."

"We are bombarded with all types of electricity. These energies affect the physical, mental/ intellectual, energetic and emotional health of people."

"Showing emotion in public in North American and European societies represents being “out of control” a great sign of weakness." Someone who has never lived in Europe obviously!

and how to deal with these nasty emotions
"Use Choming Essences To Dig Out Buried and Repressed Emotions - I have worked with many people who have told me they did not have buried emotions, even when a Vibrational Assessment showed them they had many such emotions. I have seen these same men and women tell me after using Choming Essences for a few months that they began to remember old angers, resentments, feel sadness, regret, and other emotions. They thought these feelings and memories had long gone from them and were quite surprised to see they were still present. Using Choming Essences is a very powerful help in bringing your emotions to the surface!

Choming Essences will dig out buried emotions and memories and bring them to the surface so you can remember them, feel them and release them. The Choming Essences that are especially powerful for this are as follows: Chiastolite Gem Essence; Love Lies Bleeding Flower Essence; Pearl Gem Essence; Spirea Bush Flower Essence; the Sunflower Essence; and the White Olive Tree Essence. Many other Choming Essences will also help to bring emotions to the surface so you can feel them."

Heaven save us from people like this.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Actually...
If you send someone to be evaluated, the evaluation is likely to include a whole battery of written tests, among other things.
Interesting thing about those tests...
There is no combination of answers that will lead to a diagnosis of "normal, well adjusted individual." There seems to be a built in assumption that everybody has some psychiatric disorder.

This is entirely untrue. I have seen plenty of psychologists/psychiatrists whom have done evaluations and determined that someone does not have a disorder. While I do not do the same lengthy evaluation process as a psychologist might (I am a psychotherapist), I have an intake process, and have informed people in the past that I do not think they need therapy. There is very specific criteria for each disorder, and if you do not meet that criteria, you do not have that disorder. If they, personally, believe that they will benefit from it, I will let them begin the process then a few weeks in ask them how they are benefitting. If it seems like they are, I will continue, if not I will inform them of that. The ethical thing, and what professionals are supposed to be doing, is informing someone if they do not have a disorder. If someone is not taking these steps, that is an issue with the professional, not the referring entity.

The one exception is probation/parole/etc. court system who is mandating someone to therapy and/or substance abuse treatment. Even then, I have called whomever is doing the mandate and informed them I do not think the person needs therapy/treatment. Most of my colleagues have done the same at some point.

 

[Tez3]

This is entirely untrue. I have seen plenty of psychologists/psychiatrists whom have done evaluations and determined that someone does not have a disorder

They are, at least here, medical professionals not counsellors or 'therapists'. My point was though that so many people are going to counsellors and therapists because they've bought in to the 'everyone has a mental health issue' fashion.

If someone is not taking these steps, that is an issue with the professional, not the referring entity.

The 'referring entity' I was referring to was specifically the military not in general and to which you seem to be getting upset about as if it were a personal attack on you. I explained why they are doing it. I will reiterate... when a service person may look as if they have a problem they are referred usually very quickly to the MO who after they find no physical cause will refer on to mental health professionals, this is because it's standard practice in all militaries everywhere to pass on a problem and get it off their back. Passing up it up the chain of command is the most usual thing, getting decisions out of people is always difficult so in light of the well publicised mental health conditions these service people are bumped very quickly into mental health programmes, it's either a putting up your umbrella manoeuvre or as it's usually called 'covering your ****'. There's also the issue as well that no one wants to serve on the frontline etc with someone who may 'flip'.

One thing you may want to think about is how different cultures affect how mental health is considered. The US is very different from the UK and Europe when it comes to how we deal with life, our healthcare systems are also different with much of ours being free at point of use so less chance of money being made out of counselling etc. If we are referred to a mental health professional is will be free to us, so no one is going to make money out of counselling us because our pet rabbit died. The Association for Pet Loss and Bereavement

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Unless it's an abnormal reaction they don't need counselling for it, they need friends and family.

That's rather the point. Some people have abnormal reactions. That's why I said "The event isn't what they need help with - it's their reaction to it."

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

They are, at least here, medical professionals not counsellors or 'therapists'. My point was though that so many people are going to counsellors and therapists because they've bought in to the 'everyone has a mental health issue' fashion.



The 'referring entity' I was referring to was specifically the military not in general and to which you seem to be getting upset about as if it were a personal attack on you. I explained why they are doing it. I will reiterate... when a service person may look as if they have a problem they are referred usually very quickly to the MO who after they find no physical cause will refer on to mental health professionals, this is because it's standard practice in all militaries everywhere to pass on a problem and get it off their back. Passing up it up the chain of command is the most usual thing, getting decisions out of people is always difficult so in light of the well publicised mental health conditions these service people are bumped very quickly into mental health programmes, it's either a putting up your umbrella manoeuvre or as it's usually called 'covering your ****'. There's also the issue as well that no one wants to serve on the frontline etc with someone who may 'flip'.

One thing you may want to think about is how different cultures affect how mental health is considered. The US is very different from the UK and Europe when it comes to how we deal with life, our healthcare systems are also different with much of ours being free at point of use so less chance of money being made out of counselling etc. If we are referred to a mental health professional is will be free to us, so no one is going to make money out of counselling us because our pet rabbit died. The Association for Pet Loss and Bereavement

To clarify, I was not taking it as a personal attack. If anything, I was saying that if there are issues, then it is the mental health professionals in the military who are at fault, not those serving. I was clarifying how mental health professionals in the US handle referrals, and why it is not a bad thing to receive referrals in the US, as you've made multiple comments on this thread and others about there being too many referrals, and a couple of those comments specify that there are too many referrals specifically in the US, not in the UK/Europe. Regarding making money out of counseling, even if it's government-sponsored, if they create the organization and people go to it, they're making money off it. Just a different place where the money is coming from.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Unless it's an abnormal reaction they don't need counselling for it, they need friends and family. How on earth did the world manage before paid counsellors came along? Everyone copes with things differently but being told that you need to see a 'professional' every time because the way you deal with it isn't thought to be the 'right' way is damaging. It's in the counselling industrie's interest that people lose confidence in their abilities to cope just with the help of friends and family isn't it. When your dear grandmother dies you need to mourn and grieve, taking that away from people by counselling them is wrong. Too many now think you have to be happy all the time, that you have to cope with everything with 'strategies' given to you by a counsellor, there's nothing wrong with throwing yourself on your bed and bawling your eyes out, there's nothing wrong with being sad or nor is there anything wrong with feeling bad about things. It's human nature, it doesn't need to be talked out to a person you are paying, instead sit and chat with your best mate over a few beers, they'll know you better than a therapist anyway. Your best mate gets you drunk, listens to you burbling then puts you to bed and tells you it will be fine, and they're right it will be because that's the 'counselling' you need. Keep professional help for the mental health problems that need it.

Just so you are aware, based on my own experience and the experience of colleagues that I've talked to, the training in the counseling industry on grief is similar to what you've said. I've been to countless seminars, and I remember hearing over and over in class, that just because someone is sad or grieving does not mean they're depressed. There's also the idea throughout any literature on grief/trauma that everyone grieves in their own way, and even if it's abnormal they don't necessarily need counseling, but a friend to talk to. The "coping strategies" that are generally recommended, from my own experience, almost all involve socializing/talking with a friend, feeling your emotions (crying), or doing an activity with others. Essentially all the things the average person already does to handle grief.

 

[Tez3]

Just so you are aware, based on my own experience and the experience of colleagues that I've talked to, the training in the counseling industry on grief is similar to what you've said. I've been to countless seminars, and I remember hearing over and over in class, that just because someone is sad or grieving does not mean they're depressed. There's also the idea throughout any literature on grief/trauma that everyone grieves in their own way, and even if it's abnormal they don't necessarily need counseling, but a friend to talk to. The "coping strategies" that are generally recommended, from my own experience, almost all involve socializing/talking with a friend, feeling your emotions (crying), or doing an activity with others. Essentially all the things the average person already does to handle grief.

However you have yet to convince the general public who are relying on the media, etc for their info, if you do that then you and your colleagues wouldn't have to hear over and over again about normal behaviour etc. it would be a given.

then it is the mental health professionals in the military who are at fault, not those serving.

Not really, because the mental health professionals are the last in the chain, it's those who are serving who are sending people to the MOs as well as reporting up their chain of command that serving personnel are in need of being referred to the mental health chaps. The mental health people get the people who are referred to them as well as those who self refer. You can hardly blame them for having people come and see them.

 

[Tez3]

That's rather the point. Some people have abnormal reactions. That's why I said "The event isn't what they need help with - it's their reaction to it."

Some have abnormal reactions but most don't, if you look at the site I posted for those who lose their pets they have pre bereavement counselling sessions. Such sites and many like them as well as magazines, RB articles, television shows etc are telling people they need counselling when they don't. It's obvious why, it's for financial gain but teaching people that the grieving process for everyone needs to have counselling involved is nonsense.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Some have abnormal reactions but most don't, if you look at the site I posted for those who lose their pets they have pre bereavement counselling sessions. Such sites and many like them as well as magazines, RB articles, television shows etc are telling people they need counselling when they don't. It's obvious why, it's for financial gain but teaching people that the grieving process for everyone needs to have counselling involved is nonsense.

But none of that has anything to do with my post, Tez.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

However you have yet to convince the general public who are relying on the media, etc for their info, if you do that then you and your colleagues wouldn't have to hear over and over again about normal behaviour etc. it would be a given.



Not really, because the mental health professionals are the last in the chain, it's those who are serving who are sending people to the MOs as well as reporting up their chain of command that serving personnel are in need of being referred to the mental health chaps. The mental health people get the people who are referred to them as well as those who self refer. You can hardly blame them for having people come and see them.

Either something I'm saying is not getting through to you, or something you're saying is not getting through to me. But judging from past experiences on this site, we'll just go around and around for another 7 pages, so i'm just going to agree to disagree and leave it at that.