Heel up vs heel down.

[Buka]

I had a conversation with Ed Parker about heel up (as in boxing) and heel down (as in some forms of Karate). You know how he answered?
He punched me in the right pec with heel down, then he punched me in the left pec with heel up. (Ed's hands, by the way, were like small canned hams.) F'n hurt, both of them. I mean hurt.

I had two of the nicest black and blues. He inferred, at least to me, that it was a "pickum". So, I dunno'. Both seem to work really well when done properly.

 

[Headhunter]

I had a conversation with Ed Parker about heel up (as in boxing) and heel down (as in some forms of Karate). You know how he answered?
He punched me in the right pec with heel down, then he punched me in the left pec with heel up. (Ed's hands, by the way, were like small canned hams.) F'n hurt, both of them. I mean hurt.

I had two of the nicest black and blues. He inferred, at least to me, that it was a "pickum". So, I dunno'. Both seem to work really well when done properly.

I've always said I believe it makes no difference. In parkers books and everything I've read and learnt about kenpo it's always been heel down but really I think it makes no difference, like you said both punches will hurt like hell. I do believe there's to much of do it /this/ way for it to work but another way would work just as well and even if it's not technically correct as long as it works in a fight who cares.

 

[Buka]

I've always said I believe it makes no difference. In parkers books and everything I've read and learnt about kenpo it's always been heel down but really I think it makes no difference, like you said both punches will hurt like hell. I do believe there's to much of do it /this/ way for it to work but another way would work just as well and even if it's not technically correct as long as it works in a fight who cares.

I hear you, brother.
Being old, I know a lot of high ranked guys, from many Arts, who have been around a long time. We were all kids together, many years ago. Regardless of their style, regardless of the particulars involved in a particular technique, such as heel up or heel down - when you take advantage of something - they'll change it and whack the the living hell out of you. It doesn't matter what their particular Arts manifesto is, they know all the tricks of the trade, too. It's how they got to where they are.

It's what makes the Arts so damn wonderful.

 

[Tez3]

Judging by the responses here it was a mistake to raise my heel.

or a mistake to raise the subject LOL?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've always said I believe it makes no difference. In parkers books and everything I've read and learnt about kenpo it's always been heel down but really I think it makes no difference, like you said both punches will hurt like hell. I do believe there's to much of do it /this/ way for it to work but another way would work just as well and even if it's not technically correct as long as it works in a fight who cares.

My view on this - and every stance question - is pretty simple. If the stance provides the right base for what you are doing, I'm okay with it. If the heel is up because you've shifted your weight too far forward, I'll make you put it down (by getting your weight centered), because that's a useful cue for you to self-monitor.

 

[drop bear]

I punch heel up. Boxing thing.

 

[donald1]

The front heel is up or the back heel? For us we do front heel up back heel down.

Front heel up back heel down

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Both heels down. In addition, both feet should be pointed the same direction, typically towards the target. The typical American karate method of letting the rear foot point off at an angle is robbing power because it makes it much harder to rotate the hips to generate power.

I will grant that for someone who has never done it before, it feels 'odd' to keep both feet pointed in the same direction while punching, but it is (IMHO) the best way to generate power. Heels of course both firmly down.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

For me it's heel up almost always, unless I'm in Wing Tsun class.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Both heels down. In addition, both feet should be pointed the same direction, typically towards the target. The typical American karate method of letting the rear foot point off at an angle is robbing power because it makes it much harder to rotate the hips to generate power.

I will grant that for someone who has never done it before, it feels 'odd' to keep both feet pointed in the same direction while punching, but it is (IMHO) the best way to generate power. Heels of course both firmly down.

This is our "formal" training position, too. Of course, it gives to different realities in practice, so won't always have both (or, indeed, either) heel down, nor will both (nor, again, necessarily either) foot point to target. But that is our ideal position, and the starting point we work from.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

This is our "formal" training position, too. Of course, it gives to different realities in practice, so won't always have both (or, indeed, either) heel down, nor will both (nor, again, necessarily either) foot point to target. But that is our ideal position, and the starting point we work from.

Indeed. In a tournament, a competition, self-defense, etc, many niceties go out the window and that's understood. But the core training is important because we build our structure on a solid foundation; if we have to improvise on the fly it's all good.

 

[Flying Crane]

That's another point. Sifu and sigung? Those are not words used by American kenpo. In kenpo the instructors are called mr or miss.

Well, and often the terms are used incorrectly. But there are some in kenpo, like Mr. labounty who is a pretty big name in kenpo, who use these terms

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Well, without having read the entire study and their parameters and controls and whatnot, I will say that limb proportion for a modern human is such that being on all fours is awkward for most activities, which would include striking downward. Looks to me like the photos show people down on their knees, which is an awkward position to be in for many activities. Great apes have a different limb proportion so they are still on their feet and not down on their knees when knuckle-walking, and being in that posture is MUCH less awkward for them than for humans. Early human ancestors would have had different limb proportions from modern humans as well, so I'm not sure how this theory would hold up, in terms of human evolution. Early human ancestors and apes of any kind, do not walk around on their knees. Whatever their limb proportions, and whether they are bipedal or quadrupedal, they are on their feet, not their knees. People did not evolve from moving on their knees to moving on their feet. So conducting the study with people doing activities while on their knees strikes me as very problematic for the study.

What photos are you talking about? The study dealt with standing subjects. No activities on the knees.

It looks like an interesting study. One thing which is probably significant is that as far as I can tell none of the subjects were trained fighters. That means the results may not generalize to a population which has learned specific methods for maximizing the benefits of heel-up or heel-down striking. Also the study measured force and stability while pushing not while striking. There's an important difference. While pushing I prefer heel down. For striking I prefer heel up.

 

[jks9199]

A friend of mine posted this on his facebook page. Not sure how good the study is but it is an interesting read.

Study finds that heel-down posture in great apes and humans confers a fighting advantage

I was just about to post that link myself. But I want to see the videos of them trying to push while standing on Teflon in fuzzy socks!

 

[Flying Crane]

What photos are you talking about? The study dealt with standing subjects. No activities on the knees.

It looks like an interesting study. One thing which is probably significant is that as far as I can tell none of the subjects were trained fighters. That means the results may not generalize to a population which has learned specific methods for maximizing the benefits of heel-up or heel-down striking. Also the study measured force and stability while pushing not while striking. There's an important difference. While pushing I prefer heel down. For striking I prefer heel up.

I think we may have read different studies. I went to the link, the blurb talked about trained fighters as subjects, and having the strike from down on their knees, photos included with people on their knees...

 

[geezer]

For me it's heel up almost always, unless I'm in Wing Tsun class.

Yep, that's about right. In my Wing Chun, we tend to close, keep our weight on the back leg and keep the sole of the foot flat on the floor. But in Escrima, we generate power moving our weight forward like a Dempsy "drop-step", with the rear heel raised. It's a very powerful strike, and the stance is dynamic and mobile.

So for me, each method has a place.

 

[geezer]

Yep, that's about right. In my Wing Chun, we tend to close, keep our weight on the back leg and keep the sole of the foot flat on the floor. But in Escrima, we generate power moving our weight forward like a Dempsy "drop-step", with the rear heel raised. It's a very powerful strike, and the stance is dynamic and mobile.

So for me, each stance has its place.

Whoops --double post

 

[jks9199]

I've always said I believe it makes no difference. In parkers books and everything I've read and learnt about kenpo it's always been heel down but really I think it makes no difference, like you said both punches will hurt like hell. I do believe there's to much of do it /this/ way for it to work but another way would work just as well and even if it's not technically correct as long as it works in a fight who cares.

Not speaking for kenpo -- but I think it just depends on how you choose to generate power. In my system, we use both -- depending on what we're doing. Just use different methods to find the root and generate power. (We even do punches on one foot...)

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I think we may have read different studies. I went to the link, the blurb talked about trained fighters as subjects, and having the strike from down on their knees, photos included with people on their knees...

Here is the full study referenced in Brian's link. Can you provide a link to whichever study you were looking at?

I'm not even sure how you could have subjects on their knees and with their heels flat on the ground at the same time. That doesn't seem anatomically possible.

 

[Flying Crane]

Here is the full study referenced in Brian's link. Can you provide a link to whichever study you were looking at?

I'm not even sure how you could have subjects on their knees and with their heels flat on the ground at the same time. That doesn't seem anatomically possible.

HA! yeah we definitely were reading different studies. There are a few links on the page Brian linked to, I though I had he one he was referencing. Here: Standing up to fight: Does it explain why we walk upright, why women like tall men?.

It's a blurb of the study but seems very flawed to me. I'll have to look through this other one.