Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Kung Fu Wang, Feb 16, 2017.
I find this interested thread. What's your opinion on this?
The wrestler (who was visibly larger/stronger) did a good job of making the BJJ guy play the take down game which is the wrestler's strength. Ie he kept making the BJJ guy come at him so he could sprawl/counter and kept away whenever the BJJ guy tried to take it to the ground. Then at the end he did a very nice single leg takedown. I'm not sure what level the BJJ guy was at but he was outclassed. We can only speculate how it would've went if the wrestler went down to the ground with him instead of always popping back up.
The BJJ guys mistake was to continue standing back up. The wrestler was stalling and avoiding engaging in the match. Once the BJJ was on the mat he didn't need to stand back up. At that point the onus is on the wrestler to engage.
That was also a borderline slam and he could have been dq'd.
I didn't think there was much "borderline" about it. What's the rule cutoff on a slam?
Who is avoiding the fight?
- Does the BJJ guy avoid the wrestling, or
- does the wrestler avoid the ground game?
In a MMA match between a boxer and a grappler, it's common to see that the boxer tries to avoid the grappling game, and the grappler tries to avoid the boxing game. IMO, the ending will decides who is the winner, not the strategy to get there.
Know both if you are going to do both.
"What's the value of your ground skill if you can't even take your opponent down?" Another way to ask this question can be "What's the value of your take down skill if you can't control your opponent on the ground?"
This clip just indicate that with
- good take down skill, and
- good body slam skill,
you ground skill may not be that important.
This remind me a Chinese wrestling match that I had in Taiwan. My opponent used his right hand to grab on my front belt. I used my left forearm to under hook and strike on his right elbow joint. Some audience was yielding that I had used excessive force.
- If I didn't hit hard on my opponent's elbow joint, how could I force him to release that "front belt hold"?
- If that wrestler didn't slam his opponent hard enough, how can he force his opponent to quite earlier?
sometimes, it's a judgment call. In cases like this, at least in a few of the take downs, they are well executed, even if they are high amplitude. Some, though, where he sort of picks the guy up and them drops him.. that's where it crosses over, imo.
in agrappling match, depends on the rules, of course. But if a guy is on the ground, stands up from guard and doesn't re-engage, that's a serious foul. It's also considered a serious foul if you avoid combat when I'm on the ground and you don't close and engage. You can be penalized and eventually dq'd for either in IBJJF tournaments.
Of course, if, like this guy, you get up there is no fleeing combat.
I'm a little bit confused here. Please tell me what's wrong with my following logic.
If your ground skill is not good enough to keep your opponent to stay on the ground, and if you allow him to get back up, that should be your problem and not his problem.
I think this is the difficulty for us to analyze: we don't know what the rules or background of this match are. Was it pretty much no rules aside from no striking? Or does it have NAGA/IBJJF type rules? With the way the match went and was enforced (i.e. The ref was letting the wrestler consistently stall/disengage every time it didn't go how he wanted it to, ie to the ground and with the two slams), I'm guessing the former.
Depends on if it's a ground fighting competition or not. If I'm waiting for you to engage and fight me, and you do not, you are fleeing combat. In mma, the rules are opposite than in many grappling competitions.
I'm not arguing logic. I'm explaining rules.
Could be, but impossible to know because as soon as he disengaged the BJJ guy consistently stood right up.
Yeah, I thought it was kind of weird... like maybe he should've waited a second but maybe he felt the urge to keep the match going/pursue the wrestler.
That clip should have been called "Wrestler vs BJJ guy who has absolutly no idea what he's doing."
I took that as an indicator that the rules were such that staying down had no benefit. Assuming he's accustomed to BJJ competition rules, if he were playing under them he would have fairly automatically stayed down, I'd expect. He seemed to be overriding his own habits at times.
Or maybe he's just not patient enough to wait for the rules to do their job.
I think this was a beginner division, and the wrestler just start BJJ and so signed up in hat class with the advantage of those skills but no BJJ. My gut says that these guys really didn't understand the rules, and were just doing what they knew.
Ah. That's a different view of it. I think that makes sense.
I don't know if this was a BJJ competition or not, but in wrestling, those slams are legal. My nephews both wrestle at the state level, and they do those sorts of slams frequently.
Depends on the context. For a real fight, I absolutely agree with you. For a sport, it depends on the rules of the sport. Most BJJ competitions have rules which require you to engage the person on the ground or be penalized for avoiding engagement. Other grappling sports have different rules. Some don't require you to engage on the ground. Some limit the time you can spend on the ground or disallow it entirely.
I'm not sure what rules they were competing under. The wrestler was wearing shoes, which aren't allowed in most BJJ tournaments. On the other hand, they clearly weren't competing under typical wrestling rules. If they were competing under standard BJJ rules, then the BJJ guy made a tactical error in not staying down and making the wrestler come to him. Otherwise it depends on what rules they were following.
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