Have you ever been visited by Kukkiwon?

[dancingalone]

The Honolulu Aikikai headquarters dojo is a short 6-7 minute street drive from my house, and I was thinking about starting up again (sometimes it's good to be a beginner and put on a white belt again). So I went to watch a class and ended up speaking to one of the senior instructor, who has been training 55-60 years and was a 7th Dan. I asked him when was he going to get promoted and his face sort of went down and he said that he is maxed out at 7th Dan. I thought maybe it was because he was channeling some dark side energy and they didn't want to promote him because of that. Then I went to a Ki Society school which is about 8 minutes away and he felt a little sith as well. He had higher dan rank, but there was something funny about the club and the students, who were seemed to be afraid of the instructor. I ended up not joining either because of that. Maybe it was me and the vibe I gave them, I don't know. I always thought Aikido was supposed to be cooperative and peaceful, but these instructors had something else going on. oh well I guess it wasn't meant to be.

It's always an interesting time when hapkido/jujutsu/daito-ryu people train with aikido people. The feel of the technique can be very different even though outwardly they look to be the same.

 

[puunui]

It's always an interesting time when hapkido/jujutsu/daito-ryu people train with aikido people. The feel of the technique can be very different even though outwardly they look to be the same.

Yes, feel is the key in arts like Hapkido and Aikido. You can almost instantly tell where someone is by the way they feel. BJJ is the same way. To me, the more forcing, the lower the skill level.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think you're assuming the two things never come into conflict based on your writings in this thread. They can and do, perhaps even frequently. Suppose a student's teacher decides to sever relations with the KKW. This has occurred before, regardless of whatever semantics we might choose to label the situation. It occurred in the early days of taekwondo when some of Hwang Kee's students left him for the KTA.

The student in such a case then has a choice to make. Continue on with his teacher, accepting that any further rank will be in-house only, or to break with his teacher for the organization. I would imagine most would elect to go with their teacher, but I could conceivably see some students, particularly if they have attained high rank already, choose to continue to advance with the organization. And if so, they would be holding the org as higher than than their own teacher.

This is a scenario that has repeated itself across JKA karate and Aikido with the Aikikai/Ki Society split. No martial art is immune from it.

Absolutely spot on, and this is exactly what happened where I train. Our GM ceased involvement with the kukki at a time where he had literally thousands of black belts, many were 5th dan or higher. Those students had a choice to make, continuing with our GM while knowing full well that any further advancement through the kukki would not happen OR leave and break ties with their GM. You said in your post that most would elect to go with their teacher and that is exactly what happened at our club and I dare say most students would stay with the guy who has instructed them for the last 25 years. Many of the students see the GM as a second father, my original instructor (6th dan) had his father die when he was 13 years old and our GM took him under his wing and became a father to him, and I cant blame him one bit for choosing to stay with our GM rather than leave so he can continue getting pieces of paper to hang on his wall. When I go to his house he has our GM's certs up on his wall and they are to him, his most treasured possesions and would scoff if anyone asked him if he is disappointed about no longer getting a kukki cert.

 

[puunui]

Absolutely spot on, and this is exactly what happened where I train. Our GM ceased involvement with the kukki at a time where he had literally thousands of black belts, many were 5th dan or higher. Those students had a choice to make, continuing with our GM while knowing full well that any further advancement through the kukki would not happen OR leave and break ties with their GM.

Wrong, it is NOT spot on, because your GM still issues Kukkiwon certification if the students desire it. So there is no choice for the students to make regarding leaving or staying with your GM if they wanted Kukkiwon certification.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Wrong, it is NOT spot on, because your GM still issues Kukkiwon certification if the students desire it. So there is no choice for the students to make regarding leaving or staying with your GM if they wanted Kukkiwon certification.

He offers it if they want it but it never happens. I think most students back when he ceased affiliation would have realised there was a reason he left. He doesnt talk much about it, but I think its pretty obvious that if he was happy with the kukki he wouldnt have left. Realistically, they knew if they stayed with him there would be no more kukki promotions. The fact none of them have requested one tells me a lot in regards to this. My current instructor is a 7th dan (36 years of continuos training), yet I think he is only a 1st dan kukki, that speaks volumes.

 

[puunui]

My current instructor is a 7th dan (36 years of continuos training), yet I think he is only a 1st dan kukki, that speaks volumes.

Yes it does speaks volumes, although probably not how you think. And that doesn't change the fact that it was NOT spot on, because your GM STILL issues Kukkiwon certification if anyone wants it, so there is no choice to be made regarding leaving and receiving Kukkiwon certification or staying and only having a dojang certificate. And for the last time, it is Kukki Taekwondo or Kukkiwon, NOT Kukki.

 

[msmitht]

He offers it if they want it but it never happens. I think most students back when he ceased affiliation would have realised there was a reason he left. He doesnt talk much about it, but I think its pretty obvious that if he was happy with the kukki he wouldnt have left. Realistically, they knew if they stayed with him there would be no more kukki promotions. The fact none of them have requested one tells me a lot in regards to this. My current instructor is a 7th dan (36 years of continuos training), yet I think he is only a 1st dan kukki, that speaks volumes.

What happens when your GM retires or passes away? There will be no one who can promote through the KKW unless they are 4th dan (plus master course/KOMS Member). And what about the higher dans? Who will promote them? If they dont want it then fine. But for those who do....
No one questioned my god friends rank until his GM passed away. Then he was left with 2 alternatives: Join some asssociation/GM that would recognize his rank/promote him (for a heavy fee) or strike out on his own.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

What happens when your GM retires or passes away? There will be no one who can promote through the KKW unless they are 4th dan (plus master course/KOMS Member). And what about the higher dans? Who will promote them? If they dont want it then fine. But for those who do....
No one questioned my god friends rank until his GM passed away. Then he was left with 2 alternatives: Join some asssociation/GM that would recognize his rank/promote him (for a heavy fee) or strike out on his own.

No one in my club has been promoted through the kukkiwon in a long, long time, to be honest I think our GM would have forgotten the procedure Our GM is 74 and our highest ranking students are within a year of getting their 8th dans. Within 2 years we will have about 7 x8th dans by my calculations. We will also have about 20 x 7th dans and countless 5th and 6th dans, so basically we have heaps of people who could promote us within our club. We arent a kukki affiliated club and thus no one has aspirations to receive promotion through the kukkiwon. As Ive stated before, we have over 4000 members and growing and have been around for nearly 40 years. Our GM has virtually retired now and our chief instructor runs the club with assistance from a group of 7th dans. We have a system in place where instructors must be 4th dan and potential instructors are handpicked at about 2nd dan and receive additional 'instructors training' for the 7 years leading into 4th dan. So realistically, if our GM passes away tomorrow (heaven forbid), literally nothing changes.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

We arent a kukki affiliated club and thus no one has aspirations to receive promotion through the kukkiwon.

Really, nobody is a Kukkiwon affiliated club. There are not any annual Kukkiwon dues to pay and there is no Kukkiwon dojang certificate to hang on the wall stating that a club is a Kukkiwon club. The Kukkiwon certifies instructors, not clubs.

Your GM holds a Kukkiwon grade of higher than fourth and can, at any point, issue a Kukkiwon certificate should he so choose. Your club has over 4000 members, a few of whom are preparing for a dojang paldan,

about 20 x 7th dans and countless 5th and 6th dans,.

and from what you say, none of them have a KKW cert (not a criticism; but that is what you seem to be saying. If that is not the case, please correct me).

so basically we have heaps of people who could promote us within our club. .

Yes, heaps of pepole who could promote you within the club, all of whom had the option for a KKW dan, but none of whom can offer it the to any of those 4000 students.

Given the size of your club, it probably isn't an issue, and at this point, I'd call it an organization, not a club, as your GM has got to have quite a few studios out and about.

But he has the ability to promote within the Kukkiwon and as those heaps of people who can promote within the organization cannot also issue KKW dans.

This is probably not an issue in the eyes of the students or the organization's yudanja. If your GM is offering the option and they are declining it, then that is their own choice. But none of their students within the org, following your GM's passing, will have the same option any longer (withiin your GM's life, his high dans could ask him to sign off on Kukki certs for their own students).

If starting his own org is what your GM wanted to do, then by all accounts, I'd say that he succeeded. I doubt that Jhoon Rhee's studio owners care that they cannot issue Kukkiwon or ITF dans either.

Daniel

 

[andyjeffries]

Really, nobody is a Kukkiwon affiliated club. There are not any annual Kukkiwon dues to pay and there is no Kukkiwon dojang certificate to hang on the wall stating that a club is a Kukkiwon club.

With the start of the KOMS program, this is actually changing.

"There was an award ceremony to 44 nominated foreign dojangs with special plaque as same time with the presentation."
http://www.taekwonline.com/print_paper.php?number=1541

Here is some information on how your master/dojang/group can join the Kukkiwon Overseas Membership System.

And here is a certificate clearly showing that the dojang/master is a member of the Kukkiwon Overseas Membership System.

While what you are writing always used to be correct, now it's becoming murkier to make that distinction - there is a certificate you can display on your wall that has the words "Kukkiwon Member" and your dojang name on it.

 

[andyjeffries]

Your GM holds a Kukkiwon grade of higher than fourth and can, at any point, issue a Kukkiwon certificate should he so choose.

Can (at any point before the end of 2012*) issue a Kukkiwon certificate should he so choose.

* If our friends in LA/CA are correct in the Kukkiwon telling them that by the end of 2012 all instructors will have to have passed the instructor certification process to be able to recommend for dan grades to the Kukkiwon.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

With the start of the KOMS program, this is actually changing.

"There was an award ceremony to 44 nominated foreign dojangs with special plaque as same time with the presentation."
http://www.taekwonline.com/print_paper.php?number=1541

Here is some information on how your master/dojang/group can join the Kukkiwon Overseas Membership System.

And here is a certificate clearly showing that the dojang/master is a member of the Kukkiwon Overseas Membership System.

While what you are writing always used to be correct, now it's becoming murkier to make that distinction - there is a certificate you can display on your wall that has the words "Kukkiwon Member" and your dojang name on it.

That would make a 'break' with the Kukkiwon more meaningful than simply cessation of dan application processing.

Daniel

 

[chrispillertkd]

That would make a 'break' with the Kukkiwon more meaningful than simply cessation of dan application processing.

Daniel

How so? Regardless of any changes that are coming the effect will be the same: no rank from the KKW and, thus, no participation in WTF events. What about the new regs will make leaving the KKW "more meaningful"?

FWIW, it looks like with the added requirement of going to a KKW Masters Seminar (if I recall the name of the event correctly) the KKW is following the ITF in the sense that you always had to be a certified International Instructor, which had a rank requirement of IV dan or above, in order certify black belts. The ITF did this from pretty early on and you very rarely hear any complaints by people because there's no view of changing the rules in mid-game.

Pax,

Chris

 

[puunui]

Our GM is 74 and our highest ranking students are within a year of getting their 8th dans. Within 2 years we will have about 7 x8th dans by my calculations. We will also have about 20 x 7th dans and countless 5th and 6th dans, so basically we have heaps of people who could promote us within our club.

I know these numbers seem impressive to you, but for me I question the development of those high dans in your organization, especially those who do not have their own schools or their own students. We talked about this before, but if someone refuses to open their own dojang and raise their own students, then their development will be retarded and they will not grow. Put another way, you can continue to live under your parents roof for your whole life and not raise any children of your own, and you may even help your brother or sister watch their kids once in a while, but that doesn't mean that you will understand the lessons learned from being a parent and raising your own kids under your own roof. Someone like that, who wants to continue practicing but doesn't want to open their own dojang, which you have told us is a substantial number of those high dans in your club, their actual development is probably around 3rd or a new 4th Dan, irrespective of how long they have trained or when they started.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

How so? Regardless of any changes that are coming the effect will be the same: no rank from the KKW and, thus, no participation in WTF events. What about the new regs will make leaving the KKW "more meaningful"?

Assuming that I'm reading the info in Andy's post correctly, more meaningful in the sense that it would mean an actual organizational break. Yes, the end result is still the same.

Now, within the context of this thread, it would, I assume, mean that impressions made during a visit from Kukkiwon officials could have a much greater impact on the individual school.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

FWIW, it looks like with the added requirement of going to a KKW Masters Seminar (if I recall the name of the event correctly) the KKW is following the ITF in the sense that you always had to be a certified International Instructor, which had a rank requirement of IV dan or above, in order certify black belts. The ITF did this from pretty early on and you very rarely hear any complaints by people because there's no view of changing the rules in mid-game.

The International Master Instructor program was started by the KTA back in 1971, and there is a lengthy discussion about it in the Modern History book, so I really wonder about whether the ITF was "first" in this regard. But really, who cares who was first at this point? Does it matter? WTF had their world championships before the ITF. Whoop dee do.

 

[puunui]

Our GM has virtually retired now and our chief instructor runs the club with assistance from a group of 7th dans. We have a system in place where instructors must be 4th dan and potential instructors are handpicked at about 2nd dan and receive additional 'instructors training' for the 7 years leading into 4th dan. So realistically, if our GM passes away tomorrow (heaven forbid), literally nothing changes.

That's what you think. However, history shows that when a "founder" type passes away, his students may stick together for a while, but eventually people start breaking off and doing their own thing. My first instructors have retired, and the people who I trained with under with them are all doing their own thing. That's just the way it is.

 

[chrispillertkd]

The International Master Instructor program was started by the KTA back in 1971, and there is a lengthy discussion about it in the Modern History book, so I really wonder about whether the ITF was "first" in this regard.

The first ITF International Instructors course was held in Seoul in 1968, IIRC.

But really, who cares who was first at this point? Does it matter? WTF had their world championships before the ITF. Whoop dee do.

I was pointing out that the KKW is now trying to standardize things in a way similar to what the ITF has done since the beginning and, because of the different process they took (beginning with competition first) people are already complaining about it. It wasn't a matter of who was first, as you can see from reading my post in toto, Glenn.

Pax,

Chris

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Really, nobody is a Kukkiwon affiliated club. There are not any annual Kukkiwon dues to pay and there is no Kukkiwon dojang certificate to hang on the wall stating that a club is a Kukkiwon club. The Kukkiwon certifies instructors, not clubs.

Your GM holds a Kukkiwon grade of higher than fourth and can, at any point, issue a Kukkiwon certificate should he so choose. Your club has over 4000 members, a few of whom are preparing for a dojang paldan,
and from what you say, none of them have a KKW cert (not a criticism; but that is what you seem to be saying. If that is not the case, please correct me).


Yes, heaps of pepole who could promote you within the club, all of whom had the option for a KKW dan, but none of whom can offer it the to any of those 4000 students.

Given the size of your club, it probably isn't an issue, and at this point, I'd call it an organization, not a club, as your GM has got to have quite a few studios out and about.

But he has the ability to promote within the Kukkiwon and as those heaps of people who can promote within the organization cannot also issue KKW dans.

This is probably not an issue in the eyes of the students or the organization's yudanja. If your GM is offering the option and they are declining it, then that is their own choice. But none of their students within the org, following your GM's passing, will have the same option any longer (withiin your GM's life, his high dans could ask him to sign off on Kukki certs for their own students).

If starting his own org is what your GM wanted to do, then by all accounts, I'd say that he succeeded. I doubt that Jhoon Rhee's studio owners care that they cannot issue Kukkiwon or ITF dans either.

Daniel

You are correct daniel. The reason I say "we are not a kukkiwon club" is because other than our GM there is no one who can promote through the kukkiwon within our club, and considering he has virtually retired, realistically no one will be promoted through the kukkiwon from this point forward I believe. If there was a market within our club to get a kukki cert surely someone in the last 15 years or more would have asked for one, but clearly no one has so I dont see it as a problem when our GM retires completely. I only know of one or two who ever got a cert from our GM and no none under 7th dan in our club has one and the only guy I know of who has one is my instructor who is 7th dan (1st dan kukki) and by his own admission he doesnt even know where his kukki cert is. I do liken our set up to the rhee set up. I mentioned here the other day that I met 2 rhee instructors at work and we discussed tkd for at least an hour. Those guys, like us, really only value their instructors certificates, and one of them was a little unsure as to what the kukkiwon even is. I think our club went in the direction of becoming its own organisation years and years ago and the only link left is that once upon a time our GM had some connection with another org, no different to the fact that years ago rhee was affiliated with someone. We are quite up front with new students to the club that we are not kukki affiliated and even go as far as telling parents that if they wish their children to get into olympic style sparring and enter competitions that they will not be able to do so through our club. In fact when I joined with my daughter I joked with my instructor that my daughter would go to the olympics for tkd and I was told that if that was what I wanted I should not train at the club and instead join a WTF club. Its all a part of a gradual move toward being our own entity. Actually the only reason I am even aware that my GM could get kukki certs is because I was having a few beers at my old instructors house one night and the subject came up and he mentioned that he had got them for some students years ago. Had it not been for that conversation I wouldnt even be aware that he once was affiliated with them.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I know these numbers seem impressive to you, but for me I question the development of those high dans in your organization, especially those who do not have their own schools or their own students. We talked about this before, but if someone refuses to open their own dojang and raise their own students, then their development will be retarded and they will not grow. Put another way, you can continue to live under your parents roof for your whole life and not raise any children of your own, and you may even help your brother or sister watch their kids once in a while, but that doesn't mean that you will understand the lessons learned from being a parent and raising your own kids under your own roof. Someone like that, who wants to continue practicing but doesn't want to open their own dojang, which you have told us is a substantial number of those high dans in your club, their actual development is probably around 3rd or a new 4th Dan, irrespective of how long they have trained or when they started.

I suppose it depends which part of their development we are talking about. I am good mates with 2 6th dans in my club. One is an instructor and has several clubs. He is an amazing instructor and his knowledge of the art truly blows me away, BUT due to his instructing commitments he doesnt get to spend as much time as he would like doing his own training. The other guy has never, and will never, become an instructor, it is all about the training for him. He trains as many nights a week as he possibly can and at club camps/seminars he just trains with everyone else rather than helping to instruct. He is the single best martial artist (physically) that I have ever seen, truly amazing. I can not begin to describe his ability. So to say that the second guy I described has not developed and ceased to grow is all relative I believe. I can tell you now that no one who has ever seen him do his stuff would ever say "he ceased to develop".