Have you ever been visited by Kukkiwon?

[ralphmcpherson]

That's what you think. However, history shows that when a "founder" type passes away, his students may stick together for a while, but eventually people start breaking off and doing their own thing. My first instructors have retired, and the people who I trained with under with them are all doing their own thing. That's just the way it is.

Quite true, in fact throughout our club's history we have had groups of students move on, in fact a 7th dan moved on and start his own club about 10 years ago and his club has become quite successful and he has at least 20 dojangs running just that I know of. He carried his rank with him, he has his 7 dan certs hanging on his wall in his office and has had no problems creating his own little enterprise. To my knowlege he has just over 1000 students and recognises dan rank from our club as he teaches the same thing. In the future I have absolutely no doubt this will occur again, probably several times.

 

[puunui]

The other guy has never, and will never, become an instructor, it is all about the training for him. He trains as many nights a week as he possibly can and at club camps/seminars he just trains with everyone else rather than helping to instruct. He is the single best martial artist (physically) that I have ever seen, truly amazing. I can not begin to describe his ability. So to say that the second guy I described has not developed and ceased to grow is all relative I believe. I can tell you now that no one who has ever seen him do his stuff would ever say "he ceased to develop".

That is physical development, which are dans 1-3. Dans 4-6 are more mental in nature and revolve around teaching, at your own school and developing your own methods. If you don't open your own school and develop students, then you miss out on that entire experience, in the same way that the child who never moves out of his parents house misses certain life lessons that can only be learned by having your own home and raising your own family. If he were my student, that 6th Dan who doesn't want to open his own school would be a 3rd, maybe 4th Dan and that's all he would ever be.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

That is physical development, which are dans 1-3. Dans 4-6 are more mental in nature and revolve around teaching, at your own school and developing your own methods. If you don't open your own school and develop students, then you miss out on that entire experience, in the same way that the child who never moves out of his parents house misses certain life lessons that can only be learned by having your own home and raising your own family. If he were my student, that 6th Dan who doesn't want to open his own school would be a 3rd, maybe 4th Dan and that's all he would ever be.

and that is fair enough, but not all schools are run that way. I always come back to why I started martial arts in the first place. I didnt start martial arts for 'mental development' or a 'deeper understanding of the art from a mental perspective" or to "learn how to teach what I know". I started martial arts to increase my fitness and flexibility, core strength, self defence and to spend time with my daughter. I personally want to instruct and have made my intentions known to my seniors, but I can also accept that its not for everybody. Some people have only limited time they can invest into their "hobby" and want to use this time to do the things they started for such as fun and fitness. In other endevours teching is not necessary, a footballer can have a distinguished career and go down as an all time great but is not expected to coach when he retires. For many people, if 4th dan means an end to "physical development", then they wouldnt want to grade, but then again, most people I know just want to train and couldnt care less how many stripes are on their belt. I know a guy who got his 5th dan last year, he put it off for 2 years and when I asked him why, he told me he wasnt where where he wanted to be physically. He took up running, cycling and weights and trained his *** off for 2 years until he was at his physical peak, then he graded. Guys like that just dont understand the concept of "your physical development is now no longer your main focus now that you're 5th dan".

 

[puunui]

The first ITF International Instructors course was held in Seoul in 1968, IIRC.

That 1968 course was three months long. It is not the same thing as the three day course that the ITF has now.

I was pointing out that the KKW is now trying to standardize things in a way similar to what the ITF has done since the beginning and, because of the different process they took (beginning with competition first) people are already complaining about it. It wasn't a matter of who was first, as you can see from reading my post in toto, Glenn.

Maybe that is what you meant to say, but that isn't how it came out, which is that you, like many ITF members, want to show the world that the ITF was first every chance you can.

FWIW, it looks like with the added requirement of going to a KKW Masters Seminar (if I recall the name of the event correctly) the KKW is following the ITF in the sense that you always had to be a certified International Instructor, which had a rank requirement of IV dan or above, in order certify black belts. The ITF did this from pretty early on and you very rarely hear any complaints by people because there's no view of changing the rules in mid-game.

 

[chrispillertkd]

The first ITF International Instructors course was held in Seoul in 1968, IIRC.

That 1968 course was three months long. It is not the same thing as the three day course that the ITF has now.

Of course things have changed over time. It's the same ceritification as an II, however. I'm sure the KKW courses are different now than they were back in 1971.

Maybe that is what you meant to say, but that isn't how it came out, which is that you, like many ITF members, want to show the world that the ITF was first every chance you can.

No, it's what I said, and what came out. As for wanting to show people that "the ITF was first "every chance can" that's your own spin. It's also a bit of projection on your part considering some of your posts about how the KTA had the first KKW course.

But, again, that's all irrelevant since my point was that since the KKW chose to unify in the way they did they are now having some people upset that the time for further technical uniformity has come. The ITF chose to get technical uniformity going at the beginning - which took a while to accomplish - and so you don't experience people complaining about having to change the way they do techniques because they know going in that is what is expected.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You are correct daniel. The reason I say "we are not a kukkiwon club" is because other than our GM there is no one who can promote through the kukkiwon within our club, and considering he has virtually retired, realistically no one will be promoted through the kukkiwon from this point forward I believe.

Essentially, he is allowing the ability to be Kukkiwon certified to die on the vine.

If there was a market within our club to get a kukki cert surely someone in the last 15 years or more would have asked for one, but clearly no one has so I dont see it as a problem when our GM retires completely.

And I'd wager that 99% of the reason for that is the GM telling them that it isn't important or telling them that it is even an option.

I only know of one or two who ever got a cert from our GM and no none under 7th dan in our club has one and the only guy I know of who has one is my instructor who is 7th dan (1st dan kukki) and by his own admission he doesnt even know where his kukki cert is.

And this confirms my statement above.

I do liken our set up to the rhee set up. I mentioned here the other day that I met 2 rhee instructors at work and we discussed tkd for at least an hour. Those guys, like us, really only value their instructors certificates, and one of them was a little unsure as to what the kukkiwon even is. I think our club went in the direction of becoming its own organisation years and years ago and the only link left is that once upon a time our GM had some connection with another org, no different to the fact that years ago rhee was affiliated with someone.

Pretty sure that Rhee was ITF. At the very least, early on he was using Chang Hon forms.

We are quite up front with new students to the club that we are not kukki affiliated and even go as far as telling parents that if they wish their children to get into olympic style sparring and enter competitions that they will not be able to do so through our club. In fact when I joined with my daughter I joked with my instructor that my daughter would go to the olympics for tkd and I was told that if that was what I wanted I should not train at the club and instead join a WTF club. Its all a part of a gradual move toward being our own entity. Actually the only reason I am even aware that my GM could get kukki certs is because I was having a few beers at my old instructors house one night and the subject came up and he mentioned that he had got them for some students years ago. Had it not been for that conversation I wouldnt even be aware that he once was affiliated with them.

Well, to be accurate, unless the Kukkiwon took some kind of dan-stripping action against him (which I doubt), he is still nominally affiliated with them by virtue of his certification. He could attend events and his rank of whatever it is he holds would still be recognized, and I'm sure that if you plug in his cert number or his name correctly that he will come up on a dan check on the Kukkiwon website.

But I agree that calling your club a Kukkiwon club at this point would be a stretch, given that aside from the GM and one KKW first dan/dojang7th dan, none of the other 4000 students have a Kukkiwon cert.

If you don't mind my asking, how many dojangs are in his organization?

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

To turn this around, to those of you whose dojangs are affiliated with organizations other than the Kukkiwon, such as the ITF, ATA, ITA (the Tiger Rock one), AIMMA, Jhoon Rhee, etc., have you ever received a visit from your organizational officials?

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

To turn this around, to those of you whose dojangs are affiliated with organizations other than the Kukkiwon, such as the ITF, ATA, ITA (the Tiger Rock one), AIMMA, Jhoon Rhee, etc., have you ever received a visit from your organizational officials?

Daniel

When I was a kid, our dojang in partnership with a few other dojang, brought in Jhoon Rhee from Maryland to oversee a large belt examination. It was a big deal and I probably spent 3 months working awfully hard to test for my chodan under Mr. Rhee himself as the chief examiner.

It certainly wasn't anything like a dreaded 'audit' however to make sure we were in compliance. Now that I think about it as a jaded adult, it was probably more an opportunity for the dojang owners and other senior black belts to go up a grade.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Essentially, he is allowing the ability to be Kukkiwon certified to die on the vine.


And I'd wager that 99% of the reason for that is the GM telling them that it isn't important or telling them that it is even an option.


And this confirms my statement above.


Pretty sure that Rhee was ITF. At the very least, early on he was using Chang Hon forms.


Well, to be accurate, unless the Kukkiwon took some kind of dan-stripping action against him (which I doubt), he is still nominally affiliated with them by virtue of his certification. He could attend events and his rank of whatever it is he holds would still be recognized, and I'm sure that if you plug in his cert number or his name correctly that he will come up on a dan check on the Kukkiwon website.

But I agree that calling your club a Kukkiwon club at this point would be a stretch, given that aside from the GM and one KKW first dan/dojang7th dan, none of the other 4000 students have a Kukkiwon cert.

If you don't mind my asking, how many dojangs are in his organization?

Daniel

At a guess I'd say we have about 150 dojangs currently operating in our organisation. I would imagine all clubs that eventually become their own organisation go through a "transitional phase" where technically the GM personally is affiliated with a larger org but moves in the direction of starting their own org. No doubt this 'phase' occured at some point with rhee tkd. The same happened at my karate school where I trained as a kid, they were originally affiliated with a larger org but went on to become their own entity. Our club has done the same.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Essentially, he is allowing the ability to be Kukkiwon certified to die on the vine.


And I'd wager that 99% of the reason for that is the GM telling them that it isn't important or telling them that it is even an option.


And this confirms my statement above.


Pretty sure that Rhee was ITF. At the very least, early on he was using Chang Hon forms.


Well, to be accurate, unless the Kukkiwon took some kind of dan-stripping action against him (which I doubt), he is still nominally affiliated with them by virtue of his certification. He could attend events and his rank of whatever it is he holds would still be recognized, and I'm sure that if you plug in his cert number or his name correctly that he will come up on a dan check on the Kukkiwon website.

But I agree that calling your club a Kukkiwon club at this point would be a stretch, given that aside from the GM and one KKW first dan/dojang7th dan, none of the other 4000 students have a Kukkiwon cert.

If you don't mind my asking, how many dojangs are in his organization?

Daniel

Hey Daniel, could you please post a link where I could type my GM's name in as you have suggested so I can see what rank he holds (kukki). I remember being in early high school and my parents telling me that he had gone to korea for some sort of grading (he lived at the end of my street and everybody knew of him and his club), that must have been about 1987 from memory and Im sure I remember something about 6th dan. It would be interesting to type his name in and see what comes up.

 

[andyjeffries]

Hey Daniel, could you please post a link where I could type my GM's name in as you have suggested so I can see what rank he holds (kukki). I remember being in early high school and my parents telling me that he had gone to korea for some sort of grading (he lived at the end of my street and everybody knew of him and his club), that must have been about 1987 from memory and Im sure I remember something about 6th dan. It would be interesting to type his name in and see what comes up.

The Dan Checker is at http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/new_examination/new_english/pop.jsp.

You need name, nationality and date of birth.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

The Dan Checker is at http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/new_examination/new_english/pop.jsp.

You need name, nationality and date of birth.

Thanks, I know full name and nationality but dont know exact date of birth unfortunately.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hey Daniel, could you please post a link where I could type my GM's name in as you have suggested so I can see what rank he holds (kukki). I remember being in early high school and my parents telling me that he had gone to korea for some sort of grading (he lived at the end of my street and everybody knew of him and his club), that must have been about 1987 from memory and Im sure I remember something about 6th dan. It would be interesting to type his name in and see what comes up.

Go here: http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/eng/index.action and click on promotion test. Then go to the upper right and click on one stop service. A dropdown will appear with one of the options being poom/dan check.

You have to put the name in exactly as it appears on the certificate, nationality, and date of birth, or have the cert number.

Daniel