Confused

[Yeti]

I’ve been reading other posts concerning forms, the WTF and the Kukkiwon, and it got me thinking about Dan Certification. I’m speaking here only about WTF TKD.



From what I’ve read, the only forms recognized for rank by the Kukkiwon are the Taeguk forms. But, I’ve read a lot of TKDers practice the Palgue forms. Does this then mean that their ranks are not “certified” by the Kukkiwon? If not, who certifies their ranks?



Also, if the Kukkiwon only certifies Dan ranking, who regulates Gup ranking? I guess this is in keeping with my previous post regarding an official Kukkiwon curriculum but thought I’d add it here.



Thanks.

 

[terryl965]

As far as Gup ranking there is no official gup ranking through the Kukkiwon or any othe rorganization. The Kukkiwon still accept the Palgwue forms but they like the Tae Gueks much better. They only teach Palgwue Now if you go to there seminars or instructor course, that is the way I understand it any how.

Terry

 

[Martial Tucker]

Here's my understanding of the Taeguk/Palgwe relationship. I'm not certain of this, or claiming it to be absolutely true, but again, how it was explained to me. Other's info may differ:

The Taeguks are a newer set of forms that have evolved as the WTF has become more sport-oriented. They are more upright than the Palgwe's and Taeguks involve less hand techniques.

Palgwes are a bit older, and much of their substance is from Japanese kata, which are quite a bit older.

My instructor is Kukkiwon-certified 6th dan, and it is his discretion as to which set he chooses to teach. As far as I know, when we test/pass for a higher grade, he just submits the paperwork to the WTF attesting that we are at a certain gup/dan, without including specifics as to what each of us were tested on.

Our school is very traditional in philosophy, and we practice the Palgwe's. As we progress, we are encouraged to also learn the Taeguks as part of the art.

Personally, I practice all of the Palgwe's , Koryo, Keumgang, and the first 6 Taeguks (so far). I also have learned a few Shotokan forms which are very interesting if you are familiar with the Palgwe's

 

[FearlessFreep]

My own addition to the confusion is that I think the Taeguks were developed to further distance Taekwondo from it's Japanese origins and make it more a uniquely Korean art.

 

[Brad Dunne]

Taeguks are the official forms of the Kukkiwon for rank testings. Palgwe forms are still taught in schools at the pleasure of the schools main instructor, but they are not required by the Kukkiwon for advancement.

Now on a personal note, I feel that the inclusion of different types of forms is detrimental. In a strictly TKD tournament, under the WTF/KKW banner, only Taeguks should be allowed. After all they are the official forms of the KKW. To allow different forms to be judged is not only unfair to the participant but also to the judges.

 

[terryl965]

As far as Gup ranking there is no official gup ranking through the Kukkiwon or any othe rorganization. The Kukkiwon still accept the Palgwue forms but they like the Tae Gueks much better. They only teach Palgwue Now if you go to there seminars or instructor course, that is the way I understand it any how.

Terry

I'm sorry I meant to say Tae Guek are the official form of the Kukkiwn Not Palgwue, But the Kukkiwon does not rank Gups never have never will that is a school only or organization not Kukkiwon.

 

[Martial Tucker]

My own addition to the confusion is that I think the Taeguks were developed to further distance Taekwondo from it's Japanese origins and make it more a uniquely Korean art.

I don't know if this is true or not, but it wouldn't surprise me given the similarities between the Palgwe's and Shotokan forms in many instances.

And, the name Taeguk is also associated with the Korean flag.

 

[Spookey]

Dear All,

It is mainly an issue of Old vs New...the WTF officially recognizes the Tae-Geuk Poomse. However at the Kukkiwon / WTF beginning the Pal-Gwes were the "official" patterns. Tae-Geuks as previously mentioned were not as such a reflection of the sport aspect as they were a seperation from Karate-Do Kata.

Many of the founding fathers and early seniors of the Kukkiwon were also the creators of the Pal-Gwe pattern set. Both these instructors and their pattern set are what you would consider "old school". Therefore it is not at all uncommon that they go hand and hand. Also, since many seniors are most pleased with the original poomse (often viewing evolution as "progress"). they have chosen to retain the original Kukkiwon poomse, Pal-Gwe. This choice is seldom questioned due to the status of their proponents (and invariably their successors).

In a since it is a matter of old versus new, evolution of the art, versus unnecessary change. Like many of our seniors in society. The Tae-Geuk is a portion of the computer age when those from the last generation prefer pen and ink!

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

 

[bignick]

As far as I know, a master instructor submits no certification to the WTF for gup ranks. All of the one's I've come across simply provide their own certificates to gup students that list rank, date, name, etc.

I've never heard of someone submitting info of any sort for gup ranks.

As for the taeguk's, from what I understand, yes they were developed to distance taekwondo from Karate. Many Koreans, still today, don't get along with the Japanese for obvious reasons. If you look at the Japanese kata you can see whole sections and sometimes even forms that are almost identical to the palgwe forms.

As for competitions, the Kukkiwon and WTF do not regulate or set requirements for gup ranking. For all they know, you could get to a black belt without every learning how to even kick. And if we are speaking "strictly TKD" and only discuss Taeguks does, in my opinion, a serious disservice to the history of the art and the rest of the taekwondo community.

Besides, weren't there rumors of the WTF developing new forms specifically for competitions?

 

[Miles]

The Palgwe poomsae used to be recognized as "supplemental" to the Taeguek series. That is no longer the case.

Kukkiwon recognizes the Taeguek series as it was a collaborative effort with input from all the major kwans. When the Palgwe series was developed, the representatives from the Moo Duk Kwan and Jidokwan were not present. The entire history of Taekwondo is a group effort.

As far as an instructor signing applications for Kukkiwon rank where the applicant did not perform the Taegueks...again the Kukkiwon's position is that the instructor is certifying that the Dan Promotion Regulations are being followed.

The Regulations can be found on the Kukkiwon website. Article 10 concerns the composition of the test for Dan Certification:

Article 10 : Subjects of Promotion Test

1) Test of Techniques
(1) Poomsae (Forms)
(2) Kyorugi (Sparring)
(3) Kyukpa (Breaking)
(4) Special technique

2) Test of theoretical study (over 4th Dan applicant)
(1) Written examination
(2) Thesis

Article 11 outlines the requirements for each rank. Note that the Palgwe series is not even mentioned:

Article 11 : Specified Subjects of Practical Techniques Applied to the
Poom and Dan Promotion Test

Poom/Dan Appointed Compulsory
1st Dan (Poom) Taegeuk 1st - 7th Jang 1 appointed Taegeuk 8

2nd Dan (Poom) Taegeuk 1st - 8th Jang 1 appointed Koryo

3rd Dan(Poom) Taegeuk 1st - 8th Jang , Koryo 1 appointed Keumkang

4th Dan(Poom) Taegeuk 1st - 8th Jang , Koryo, Keumkang 1 appointed Taebaek

5th Dan Taegeuk 1st - 8th Jang , Koryo, Keumkang, Taebaek 1 appointed Pyongwon

6th Dan Taebaek, Pyongwon, Sipjin 1 appointed Jitae

7th Dan Pyongwon, Sipjin, Jitae 1 appointed Cheonkwon

8th Dan Sipjin, Jitae, Cheonkwon 1 appointed Hansoo

9th Dan Jitae, Cheonkwon, Hansoo 1 appointed Illyo

10th Dan Decided by the Judgement of Technical Council

Miles (sory that the lines in the outline did not come through!)

 

[Andy Cap]

Great thread. It is good to see that I am not the only one wondeing about KKW, WTF and the rest. It is said the Tae Gyuk were developed to differentiate Korean TKD from Japanese karate, and I can see this to a poiny. What I would point out as the "Devils' Advocate" here is that Tae Kwon Do is practiced by the orean military. In fact it is mandatory. So, let's say you have a class of 50-100 soldiers and you are going o teach them a form and you are modern day military. Well Tae Gyuk Il is a great representation of a marching form if I ever saw one.