hatsumi's skill?

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

In the thread I created about Rick Tew that mimics this one, when asked about Tew's merits in competitions you stated (correctly) that the original question was if RTMS has been tested, and not if Tew himself is skilled or not.

This thread is called "Hatsumi's skill" but the question you put forth has nothing to do with his skill level, but is rather about whether or not he has actual combat experience.
You have some serious explaining to do.

 

[heretic888]

you are not japanese so you can't understand hatsumi's skill"

That, in fact, is not what Nimravus nor myself have said at all.

I'm suddenly reminded of the time when you misconstrued some of the things that Dale Seago said about Robert Bussey on another thread, enson. Perhaps you should devote a little more attention to trying to get at what the Other is saying, rather than just projecting onto the Other??

 

[Blind]

This is re Ensons last post.

I dont recall reading you won`t understand because you aren`t Japanese but anyway, if you read carefully the proof of his skill is in how many people he has duped into his phoney unrealistic system . The fact that he has taught (and even his students have taught) many people who have fought in wars or in some line of duty that seem to think his stuff is the bees knees-read Dons post again-is pretty strong evidence. Adding to that his various certificates, that you can no doubt find a list of on the net, he is obviously a type of person who deserves our respect.

Seems to me you just want a ninja story how once Hatsumi was walking down the road and ten guys came at him with swords drawn and he used his powers to defeat them all??? There actually are many stories but as was pointed out if you were not there and don`t have it on film it is just a rumour and can`t be backed up.

I really don`t think you should be asking this question and I think thats the reason people are asking "how about your teacher?"

 

[RRouuselot]

I really don`t think you should be asking this question and I think thats the reason people are asking "how about your teacher?"

I think they call that redirecting the heat. :flame:

 

[Enson]

and they say i'm vague... this thread has nothing to do with sensei tew... lets keep it on topic. can't someone give me a straight answer? well till then...

 

[RRouuselot]

and they say i'm vague... this thread has nothing to do with sensei tew... lets keep it on topic. can't someone give me a straight answer? well till then...

Kool…….so in you opinion who would you say has more “real world” experience……Tew or Hatsumi?

 

[Enson]

Quote:


What the matter? Can't take a little heat? Wuss!


that is the bad rep point i got... am i the one that can't take heat? ha ha ha! is that where we are now... name calling? alright...

Kool…….so in you opinion who would you say has more “real world” experience……Tew or Hatsumi?

not the subject of this thread... maybe that would go under the "whos better, my daddy or your daddy?" thread...

 

[RRouuselot]

Quote:


What the matter? Can't take a little heat? Wuss!


that is the bad rep point i got... am i the one that can't take heat? ha ha ha! is that where we are now... name calling? alright...
not the subject of this thread... maybe that would go under the "whos better, my daddy or your daddy?" thread...

Really? I thought the topic was on Hatsumi's skills....I merely asked for you to compare it to someone you actually train with.
(you do actaully train with Tew don't you?)
In this way we might be able to compare and contrast skills to determine what skill level hatsumi is at.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

That's it. Now we have a moderator who's trolling. Yes, Enson, I'm speaking about you. Look up confirmatory biases in an encyclopedia and you'll be on picture.

Either you counter the points we've already brought up or you don't say anything at all.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

If you will check Ensons post, top-right corner and compare it to mine you will notice that while mine says "Administrator", his says nothing. This is because earlier today Enson resigned his position as moderator here.


Regarding the questions being asked, they are as legit as Besters questioning of Bussey, Tew and Hayes in the AN section. One cannot insist on the right to question, then limit to who those questions may be asked.

Given the position of honor that Hatsumi holds, it would seem even more of interest to know that he does have legit skill.

It may be wondered, given his age on how his skill is today, compared with when he was at his prime (physically).

Now, while one usually thinks of 'old men' as weak, I have seen on several occations a few grandmasters well into their 70's move with speed, power and 'smoothness' that few 30 yr olds can match.

I have also seen now several of Dr. Hatsumis videos, and while I can't speak for the spoken part (not understanding Japanese at this time), the techniques that I saw were smooth, polished and very lethal looking.

Ensons request for information is legit, in my eyes.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

My mistake. But that still doesn't explain why Enson seems to think Rick Tew's experience has nothing to do with his skill level, and why Hatsumi sensei's experience has everything to do with his skill level.

On all accounts, Hatsumi sensei is far more polished nowadays than he was while in his 50's.

 

[Tengu6]

I try to make it a point NOT to respond to such riiculous, uninformed posts....but sometimes I just cant resist.

First, Enson....you have all the wrong guys in your corner. Rick Tew, SKH, and Ralph? you know....Ralph has a history in this art that most likely predates your baby blanket....and that history is full of reasons he is no longer welcome in the Bujinkan. Regardless of the story he may tell, he did not "leave" the Bujinkan, he was petitioned and his lisence and membership revoked. End of story.

As far as Toshindo......I was there before Toshindo in an SKH dojo.....I saw the training before.....saw the transition to Toshindo......I was there for it. I know the curriculum. So yes, I have seen it in action. I am now exclusively in the Bujinkan.....as are the vast majority of pre Toshindo people.....why do you think that is? Im not sayinf Toshindo is all bad, but then, I have seen Tae Kwon Do used effectively and I would still want nothing to do with that art either........

I wont even discuss Rick Tew, I have already typed his name twice and that is too much. His training camps sure look like fun for the kids though.

Now on to Hatsumi. There is so much history you seem very unaware of. After Takamatsu passed away, Hatsumi spent years testing to the limits the effectiveness of what was bestowed upon him............this involved many severely damaged Uke's...those Uke's are still with him if you need varification.

Takamatsus history is documented in China if you care to do the research. Hatsumis skill has been varified several times over.................visit him if you are curious. Thier history is no more heresay than Hayses.

On a side note, this is not directed at Enson, but I know a bujinkan Godan who is very skilled at tae kwon do....another very skilled Bujinkan student was executing a PERFECT hip throw.........the first guy I mentioned executed a hooking heel kick on the way over and knocked him out cold......

never discount the posibility of any technique in the hands of someone who understands the warrior arts.

Finaly, Enson, you must be a mushroom. Everyone seems to keep you in the dark and feed you BS. Lay off the home study course and get your but in a Dojo. read some true Japanese history, and btw, SKH books dont count as true history. I know a Shugenja Priest in Japan who says the info provided by SKH is horribly innacurate at best.


Markk Bush

 

[Cryozombie]

I think something missing from many of these posts too is this:

The question of the effectivness of the art based on Hatsumi's fighting experience is moot, as he did not create the 9 arts...

The question of the effectivness of the art should be based on "did it, and its grandmasters, survive using it durring the times of conflict in japan's history when they had no choice but to rely on it"

The answer would be yes.

Question Hatsumi's fighting experience all you want... but in the case of our art, the history of the art is much older than the man currently passing it down to us, not the other way around.

 

[Enson]

Question Hatsumi's fighting experience all you want... but in the case of our art, the history of the art is much older than the man currently passing it down to us, not the other way around.

i think that is the first real point brought up here on this thread... not, "well what if hatsumi and your teacher fought?" kinda dumb. anyway... what worked in the olden days might not necessarily work today... yeah its good to study tradition, but what happens when tradition is just history? i think even hayes said that in the old days they had to learn how to punch around the armour and other things... if that is the case a new modern version has to be made. now, without getting off topic...
my question is simply this, what fighting experience does hatsumi have. its one thing to have skills and fluid technique... but what about fight experience? has your own teacher ever used the stuff on anything other than his ukes?

 

[Tgace]

Do you really need "fighting experience" to teach? I would think the pool of qualified candidates would get kinda small.

 

[Kizaru]

... lets keep it on topic. can't someone give me a straight answer? well till then...

Hatsumi sensei is a well respected member of the Japanese martial arts community in Japan not only because of his title as Soke, the way he carries himself in society or his accomplishments as an artist, but because of his experience. As someone mentioned before, there was a period of time when he was going out and "verifying" what he had learned.

As far as former Bujinkan members saying that they've been told by Hatsumi soke himself that they have more real experience than him, well, refer to the "Hatsumi sensei will give you just enough rope to hang yourself" quote.

As far as the reputation of Hatsumi sensei's teacher, Takamatsu Toshitsugu, there are multiple newspaper articles where his actions have been recorded that can be found in Japan...I'm sure there were other events where police and news media were not involved, but it would be difficult at best to find concrete evidence for those events. I believe this because he has a good reputation, and a good reputation is often a good foundation for investing belief.

In short, Hatsumi sensei has verified for himself what he has been taught, and he has more than a handful of students that continue to "verify" what they've learned from him, not as a "pastime", but as a necessity of their jobs and cultural climates.

 

[Kizaru]

has your own teacher ever used the stuff on anything other than his ukes?

Yes.

 

[Enson]

Finaly, Enson, you must be a mushroom. Everyone seems to keep you in the dark and feed you BS. Lay off the home study course and get your but in a Dojo. read some true Japanese history, and btw, SKH books dont count as true history. I know a Shugenja Priest in Japan who says the info provided by SKH is horribly innacurate at best.


Markk Bush

a mushroom? well okay... i just know what about the buj from what i read. if the info is innacurate all of the sudden then there is a problem... was pretty good when everyone else was reading hayes's books wishing they could one day study in japan like him. now they are not reliable and what not... okay that doesn't really effect me does it?

there is nothing wrong with home study... its just one of my many avenues on my martial road... i'm sure jbran, who is being ranked in your art through hayes' home study program and shogun along with many others think they are getting a good source of study. like i said i also am part of a rtms club(small group) and attend seminars... then again this thread isn't about me.

 

[Enson]

DUX sensei is a well respected member of the Japanese martial arts community in Japan not only because of his title as Soke, the way he carries himself in society or his accomplishments as an artist, but because of his experience. As someone mentioned before, there was a period of time when he was going out and "verifying" what he had learned.
As far as the reputation of DUX's sensei's teacher, Senzo "the tiger" Tanaka, there are multiple newspaper articles where his actions have been recorded that can be found in Japan...I'm sure there were other events where police and news media were not involved, but it would be difficult at best to find concrete evidence for those events. I believe this because he has a good reputation, and a good reputation is often a good foundation for investing belief.

In short, DUX sensei has verified for himself what he has been taught, and he has more than a handful of students that continue to "verify" what they've learned from him, not as a "pastime", but as a necessity of their jobs and cultural climates.

you know if one our dux's practicioners was to say this same thing...
this isn't proof... just hearsay and very well stated opinion.

 

[Enson]

Don't know if I REALLY "disapprove" here or not, but I haven't dinged you in awhile and I was feeling nostalgic. - The Faceless X

another bad rep point... what the heck is "&quot". just for questions... weird.