Good Cop / Bad Cop

[jks9199]

On the flip side, the police wanting to be soldiers is just as serious a problem. (towns owning apc's with .50 cal's mounted on them is a big clue that this isn't the USA I, at least, grew up in.)

It's most certainly not the world I grew up in. When I was a kid, shootings in the community I grew up in were pretty much unheard of. They weren't exactly common elsewhere, and when they did happen, they didn't tend to involve high power rifles or semi- or full- auto combat-style rifles. They were around -- but they weren't common on the streets. It ain't like that today.

Fights when I was kid tended to be unarmed; stabbings and knife attacks did happen -- but they weren't common.

More and more firepower is increasingly commonly in the hands of more and more crooks today. Police departments prepare for that. Police are also the first line of defense on US soil; the odds are virtually certain that unless the next terrorist attack (and there WILL be another, though I won't try to predict what sort of attack or terrorist) will be responded to by police officers and firefighters long before any military personnel arrive -- if they ever do. We have explicitly and intentionally chose to put civil order in the hands of civil authority -- and I think it's a good thing!

Never experienced a productive encounter, so can't speak to that.



I do my best to not be where the police are as quickly as possible. Experience has taught me that that is the best place to be.

Is it possible that you bring the character of these encounters upon yourself? I asked many posts back if perhaps you are allowing your early experience to characterize every encounter today -- even though the situation and environment is not the same. You never really did reply to that in any way.

There are cops (every one of us knows a few) that you know, if they're involved, there's gonna be a problem. Some of them are just jerks and *******s; some simply are lacking in personal communication skills; a few are simply badge heavy and arrogant. But to characterize every cop that way is no more fair than deciding that every person from who lives along the Shenandoah Valley is an uneducated, illiterate hillbilly involved in generations-long feuds with their neighbors, or any other form of stereotyping. I challenge you simply to assess your actions and your behavior and your beliefs regarding law enforcement; are you perhaps stereotyping the police unfairly?

I'm going to make one more comment that will probably offend some people. There is one thing about law enforcement that is among the hardest of them to teach a rookie; the police must operate on a "what-when" mindset, not a "what if." Police officers must have, in the back of their mind, a plan to respond with force - possibly lethal force - to every single person they encounter. We simply cannot get the bad guys to all agree to where black hats and labeled t-shirts, and some of the most mild appearing people are the ones that would kill us in a heartbeat. Our profession is called upon to run towards the guns; to go at what everyone else is running from. And we must be emotionally and mentally prepared to do so at any moment! That certainly shapes how we live.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Elder, I think that this quote makes quite possibly the most profound statement of the entire thread. You can't control any one else in a truly meaningful manner. You can, however, attempt to control their reactions to outside stimuli by not giving them any negative input.

Yes I would also agree with Jeff that this is the most profound and important statement to come out of this thread so far.

 

[jks9199]

"My job's stressful, but I have a gun so I get to be a jerk" is not a compelling excuse.

I don't believe that what you heard was what was said... Perhaps a re-reading might be in order?

 

[jks9199]

I don’t know which one I’m dealing with when I get pulled over, or have to otherwise deal with them, but I can control which of me they’re dealing with, so I do.

Best advice I've seen, for almost any human interaction.

Jack Hoban codified several years of experience with Robert Humphrey like this:

Wherever I walk,
everyone is a little safer because I am there.

Wherever I am,
anyone in need has a friend.

Whenever I return home,
everyone is happy I am there.​

I've found keeping this Warrior Creed in mind has had a very powerful effect on my dealings with people.

How I present myself, the way I approach someone, even the mindset I have going into an encounter invariably shapes how that encounter will go. If I go into the encounter expecting positive interaction, there's an excellent chance of a positive outcome. If I expect problems -- I invariably find problems. I personally try to start positively, and adjust as the conversation flows.​

 

[MJS]

Again, I stated that I would probably comply with a polite request to do so. But I see no compelling reason why I should be required to do so. Again, the government has no right or authority to tell me how I may stand.

It's a sad state we find ourselves in where the government can't figure out that rights should be respected.

Why should the government be able, at certain times and places, to be able to tell you that you may or may not stand there or do that?

Very bluntly, because we're not in KP.-land (or Bob-land or Jks-land or wherever-land). You're part of a society; the freest society on the planet, but that doesn't mean there are no rules. The First Amendment gives you the freedom to peacably assemble and to associate with whomever you please for any purpose that's not illegal, as well as the general right to say what you wish. But it still allows some regulation of where you may assemble (among other things, you can't assemble on private property without the owner's permission & consent), and even, in some cases, what you can say.

Moving from that general point -- as a cop, I AM allowed to control your movements to a certain degree if I have grounds to stop you. I generally will ask once, tell once, and then make you comply. I reserve the right to move up or down that scale as the circumstances demand -- because I am not required to risk being shot, knifed, or even simply hit. Being hit, shot, or stabbed is NOT in a cop's job description anymore than being in a crash is part of a delivery driver's job; it's simply a risk of the job. As hard as it is to believe, cops do have families that love them and want them to return home; we do all we can to make sure that happens!

Well KP, there ya go. Can't really add much to that. Kinda sounds a bit like what I said about my incident in the DOC with that ***, who refused to let me look in his pocket. However, I'm still wondering why you can't answer the rest of the question...what is so hard about a simple request from the cop, to make the whole thing less tense? Lets put the shoe on the other foot. If you were the cop, and you were alone with a suspect, would you not want to feel somewhat secure? Would you not want to see his hands? What if he had a gun or knife on him?

 

[Drac]

If you were the cop, and you were alone with a suspect, would you not want to feel somewhat secure? Would you not want to see his hands? What if he had a gun or knife on him?

I asked him a similar question earlier..See below...

I would love to see you but on a badge and a gun and encounter somone with your attitude and see how Officer Friendly you remain...

Here was his answer...

"My job's stressful, but I have a gun so I get to be a jerk" is not a compelling excuse.

 

[MJS]

I asked him a similar question earlier..See below...



Here was his answer...

Sigh...why am I not surprised.

 

[Sukerkin]

"I don’t know which one I’m dealing with when I get pulled over, or have to otherwise deal with them, but I can control which of me they’re dealing with, so I do. I’m polite and compliant." Spot on observation, sir. I tried to rep buff you for it but the quote sent things a little screwy . Hopefully some sense made it through the truncation .

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Why do cops need the firepower they now have?

Maybe this is why:

[yt]6-cMIVNntHs[/yt]

Pay careful attention.....the cops were out gunned by -2- gunmen with automatic weapons, and body armor. Notice how the one gunman walks lazily in the open firiing at will.

This was in LA.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Interesting range that firefight ended at. What was that, 12 feet? Hard to imagine being in that mess. Very glad only the robbers were killed.


Here's a worse one. Warning, this isn't pretty.
This resulted in the death of Sgt. Howard Stevenson, in an act of cold blooded murder at the hands of a decorated US marine.
http://www.aztlan.net/ceres_shootout.htm
[yt]tjTBwrLRbsw[/yt]

Tell me the cops deserved this like the pieces of **** commenting on Youtube, and I'll happily "see nothing" as they beat the commentors sorry sad ***.

 

[KP.]

I asked him a similar question earlier..See below...



Here was his answer...

I didn't see question in what you wrote. Maybe in the whole condescending "i'd like to see you strap on a gun" thing I missed any attempt at dialogue.

However, I did answer you, I believe I wrote:

If I were talking to a police officer and I was asked just as you stated, I'd do so without hesitation.

But to my knowledge, there's no law compelling me to, nor is refusal to do so a reason to be taken to the ground, as was suggested above.

 

[MJS]

KP, in case you missed this post, I'm interested in your comments.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1088166&postcount=325

 

[KP.]

What's to respond to?

In KP-land bad cops wouldn't be stopping people without reason and "moving up and down the scale" based on their desire to inflict damage upon another individual. But that happens with regularity too.

It doesn't surprise me that the guys with the guns figure they get to demand what they want.

But, if the police officer is merely questioning someone, and has no reason to suspect them of a crime, they do not have the right to tell someone what position to stand in in general. They do have the right to conduct a pat-down search to assure themselves that they are not in any danger, but past that point, if the person is not suspected in something and they want to put their hands in their pockets, they are within their rights to do so.

However, whatever the cop wants to do he'll win. In court the cop says "He made a threatening move so I took him to the ground . ." and it's game over regardless of whatever really happened.

I started the thread in response to the contention being put forth by the police officers here that anytime anyone is abused by the police it is always the victim's fault because it would not have happened if only that person had listened.

To me, that's just more of the same.

Again, were it me, and I was asked politely, I'd remove my hands and keep on talking with the officer. I've never been in that situation. I have never, and I really wish to stress this, NEVER encountered a police officer where I wasn't at a minimum told to stand with my legs spread and my hands out on the hood of the car.

I have never been charged with anything above traffic tickets. And frankly, except for once on this really nice straight road in Texas, those were utterly bogus as well. But the one in Texas was entirely legitimate as a ticket . . . I just had to see how fast the car would go. What can I say, I was 22 or something like that.

But as soon as I blew by the guy I started slowing down and pulling over. I started breaking before he put his lights on . . . that was actually the best encounter with a policeman I've ever had. Though I still had to tolerate being told to get out of the car, get searched, grab the hood and get called "Boy" every sentence.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Cops don't stop people without a reason. You just can't seem to grasp that KP. In your world, they are out to get you, you can't win, so piss on em all. Rather crappy mindset to live a life on. *** hole cops who **** up are regularly put away by the same system you say lets them **** you up without worry, a fact that you either refuse to grasp, or are too stuck in "sorry *** victim mode" to see. Whichever it is, you bring your pain on yourself.

Oh, and KP? A cop doesn't have a right to just pat you down. He can't touch you without cause, and checking out your junk just taint cause brudda. That's an unlawful search, and it can and will and has been thrown out in a hundred courts all over this great land of ours and the cop spanked badly, and I'm not talking how I spanked Officer Amy last week. (I'd post the video butt I don't want to get in trouble again).

Bad cops get taken down all the time, and if all you see are bad cops, maybe, just maybe, you need your own reality check and an attitude adjustment. But if you're on the steps of my store, leaning on my car, or hanging out in front of my house, you bet your sweet *** I'm calling the boys in blue and hoping they move you along. I don't want trouble magnents near me. I cause my own **** storms.

Now that I've kicked ***, can someone please pass me some more bubblegum? I need to get moving. I need to pick up some "performance enhancers" from my local drug pusher for a 3 day Special Forces Operation this weekend. Thank god for 24 hour drive through service. Officer Amy is coming over again and she's bringing some of her friends! We're playing "Hide the Baton" and California Carrie promised she'd show me how a CHIPPY rides! WOOF!

What the hell is Ponch style anyway?

 

[MJS]

What's to respond to?

In KP-land bad cops wouldn't be stopping people without reason and "moving up and down the scale" based on their desire to inflict damage upon another individual. But that happens with regularity too.

It doesn't surprise me that the guys with the guns figure they get to demand what they want.

But, if the police officer is merely questioning someone, and has no reason to suspect them of a crime, they do not have the right to tell someone what position to stand in in general. They do have the right to conduct a pat-down search to assure themselves that they are not in any danger, but past that point, if the person is not suspected in something and they want to put their hands in their pockets, they are within their rights to do so.

However, whatever the cop wants to do he'll win. In court the cop says "He made a threatening move so I took him to the ground . ." and it's game over regardless of whatever really happened.

I started the thread in response to the contention being put forth by the police officers here that anytime anyone is abused by the police it is always the victim's fault because it would not have happened if only that person had listened.

To me, that's just more of the same.

Again, were it me, and I was asked politely, I'd remove my hands and keep on talking with the officer. I've never been in that situation. I have never, and I really wish to stress this, NEVER encountered a police officer where I wasn't at a minimum told to stand with my legs spread and my hands out on the hood of the car.

I have never been charged with anything above traffic tickets. And frankly, except for once on this really nice straight road in Texas, those were utterly bogus as well. But the one in Texas was entirely legitimate as a ticket . . . I just had to see how fast the car would go. What can I say, I was 22 or something like that.

But as soon as I blew by the guy I started slowing down and pulling over. I started breaking before he put his lights on . . . that was actually the best encounter with a policeman I've ever had. Though I still had to tolerate being told to get out of the car, get searched, grab the hood and get called "Boy" every sentence.

You still can't answer the question that I asked can you? You avoid and avoid but fail to come thru. Why I bother anymore I don't know. What can't you understand? If someone is being questioned, lets say they stole something from a store. Cop comes across the person. They are being detained. What is so wrong about having that person take their damn hands out of their pockets? How the hell is that a violation of rights? Do you not feel that the officer should be safe? Oh wait, you still havent answered that question...you know, the one where I put YOU in the shoes of the cop. And sorry, I don't buy the line that every cop in the world is going to stop you for the sake of it.

Oh and BTW, you really started this thread because you couldnt get away with your bashing in the LEO thread, so you bring it here. Let me ask another question, although it'll probably go unanswered. Lets say something went wrong while you were at a bar, or out driving. Someone accused you of cutting them off in traffic or looking at their girl in the bar. A verbal argument begins. Would you haul off and beat the **** out of the guy or would you try to defuse the situation verbally? I'm interested in hearing your answer.

Myself...I'd do my best to verbally defuse it, to ease the tension. So, same thing applies to the cop. Instead of being one to have that cocky, I have to defy everything attitude, what the hell is so damn hard about doing something so simple? BTW, I never got an answer...yeah, go figure...to my DOC post.

 

[Carol]

Now that I've kicked ***, can someone please pass me some more bubblegum?

Sorry man, like my pick says, I'm all out of bubble gum. Really. :lfao:

 

[KP.]

Cops don't stop people without a reason. You just can't seem to grasp that KP.]

Yes, they do. Unless "driving while black" is an any way a legitimate reason in your book.

Oh, and KP? A cop doesn't have a right to just pat you down.

Strike two. It's called a "Terry Search" or a "Terry Stop," named after the case Terry v Ohio. They may not do so with a purpose to discover anything other than a weapon, and those are the one's that get thrown out.

In that case, three men were doing nothing more than pacing back in forth in front of a jewelry store. The officers stopped and searched them because they were acting suspiciously. They did not have probable cause. The Supreme Court ruled that for a frisk to happen, only reasonable suspicion was required.

 

[KP.]

You still can't answer the question that I asked can you? You avoid and avoid but fail to come thru. Why I bother anymore I don't know. What can't you understand? If someone is being questioned, lets say they stole something from a store. Cop comes across the person. They are being detained. What is so wrong about having that person take their damn hands out of their pockets?

I've answered that several times. I am not required to stand at attention while speaking to the police either. The government has no authority to tell people how them must stand.

Do you not feel that the officer should be safe? Oh wait, you still havent answered that question...you know, the one where I put YOU in the shoes of the cop. And sorry, I don't buy the line that every cop in the world is going to stop you for the sake of it.

I never said they are. I said that has been the limits of my experience. I've gone out of my way to assert, time and again, that I don't believe my experience defines all police; rather, I have repeatedly stated I believe most cops are hard working, honest folks trying to do a hard job well. But somehow you keep missing that.

Oh and BTW, you really started this thread because you couldnt get away with your bashing in the LEO thread, so you bring it here.

Go read that thread. I stated what I new to be an unpopular view, namely that there are police who enjoy hurting people. The discussion started on that point and several people came in and specifically said it is always the victim's fault. That universal claim is what I discussed, and I did not there, nor here, attempt to "bash the police" in general. On the flip side, it is hard to even engage the police and their representatives on issues with police violence because the immediate reaction is to deny that it happens, or at least it never happens where they are. Or if it does, the claim is always that it's dealt with immediately and harshly -- even though the evidence presented in criminology and sociology journals says otherwise. But, when one points to those sources, one is told that they are biased sources.

Let me ask another question, although it'll probably go unanswered. Lets say something went wrong while you were at a bar, or out driving. Someone accused you of cutting them off in traffic or looking at their girl in the bar. A verbal argument begins. Would you haul off and beat the **** out of the guy or would you try to defuse the situation verbally? I'm interested in hearing your answer.

I always try to avoid violence if possible.

Myself...I'd do my best to verbally defuse it, to ease the tension. So, same thing applies to the cop. Instead of being one to have that cocky, I have to defy everything attitude, what the hell is so damn hard about doing something so simple? BTW, I never got an answer...yeah, go figure...to my DOC post.

DOC post?

And let's see .. as for the hands in the pocket thing, again I've repeatedly stated that if asked politely to remove my hands from my pockets, I'd almost certainly do so without reservation. My point is not that I wouldn't do it to make the officer feel safer, my point is that I wouldn't have to. Again, something I've said repeatedly.

 

[elder999]

Cops don't stop people without a reason.

In case I wasn't clear earlier-yes, they do. Of course, to some-skin color is a "reason," but there's nothing reasonable about being on the receiving end of that sort of behavior, and that's what it is, bad behavior-though some might call it "good police work."

. *** hole cops who **** up are regularly put away by the same system you say lets them **** you up without worry, a fact that you either refuse to grasp, or are too stuck in "sorry *** victim mode" to see.

Yeah, and sometimes they have to put 41 bullets in a guy pulling out his I.D., or shove a plunger up someone's rectum to "get put away by the system," and sometimes they do those things and they don't get "put away by the system.

Funny, what color were the "victims" in those particular "crimes?"

Oh, and KP? A cop doesn't have a right to just pat you down.

Funny story-I was back in New York, walking my dog, in my own neighborhood. A house had been burglarized, the cops were around-same two State Troopers that I saw thump the crap out of a lady in the emergency room waiting room-and they stopped me and asked what I was doing-I told them I was going for a walk, whereupon it was Oh, he's going for a walk-this not three doors from my own house. Whereupon they searched me-didn't ask,didn't ask me to empty my pockets, just started sticking their hands in my field jacket-all the time telling me they could, because they had "probable 'cause." Never mind that I was walking towards the house that had been burglarized, and was in my own neighborhood, and had my goddam dog with me -somehow, in the face of all those improbabilities, they had "probable 'cause."

All too often, probable cause is, well, because you're there.

Bad cops get taken down all the time,

Bad cops get away with it for years before they "get taken down." Sometimes, they retire. If you look at my earlier post, I could just as easily say that I'm treating all cops like "bad cops" until I find out otherwise-in fact, that is what I'm doing: I'm treating all cops like cops-good or bad, but I'm assuming the worst almost every time.

Now that I've kicked ***, can someone please pass me some more bubblegum?

Sorry, dude-I'm not on K.P.'s side on this, but I'm not on yours either.Ya can't have any of my bubblegum. :lol: Odds are pretty good-based on what you've posted-that I wouldn't give you water if you were crawling through the desert-in uniform.:lfao:

 

[Cryozombie]

Officer Amy is coming over again and she's bringing some of her friends! We're playing "Hide the Baton" and California Carrie promised she'd show me how a CHIPPY rides! WOOF!

I just gotta ask... as often as you feel the need to comment like this, I wonder are you 11 years old and wondering what grownup sex is like? Cuz most "normal" grownups who are having regular sex don't feel the need to talk about this sort of thing in every other post. Overcompensate much?