Good Cop / Bad Cop

[KP.]

Better picture

Serious question -- what the heck is that used for?

 

[MJS]

If I were talking to a police officer and I was asked just as you stated, I'd do so without hesitation.

But to my knowledge, there's no law compelling me to, nor is refusal to do so a reason to be taken to the ground, as was suggested above.

My last post in this thread for a while. So you're telling me that if you were a cop and you were going to make an arrest and told the person to get out of their car or if they were already out and you told them to turn around and put their hands behind their back, and they refused, after you repeatedly asked them, that you would not take them down?

As I said, a little cooperation goes a long way. I remember one day when I was a CO, I was patting a guy down. I felt something in his rear pocket, and when I went to reach into his pocket, he pulled away and said something to the effect of, "What the **** you lookin' in my pocket for? You gay or somethin'?"

Now, this guy was a first class jackass, as I was simply doing my job, which consisted of random pat downs. For all I knew, he had a shank in his pocket. He refused to let me look, so I simply called for assistance. Needless to say, it was a comb. Oh he got the comb back...and was locked up for the remainder of the night.

Again, why be an *******? All I wanted to know, was what the item was...perfectly within my rights as a CO. I was not rough with him, nor was I verbally abusive to him. I randomly picked him from the day room.

Did his actions both verbal and physical raise my suspicion and guard a bit? Of course. With his sudden action of pulling away, I would have been well within my right to bring him to the ground, yet I chose not to.

So, a simple incident turned into a fiasco. All because this guy wanted to be an *** and show off. Moral of the story...he lost. One way or the other, I was going to find out what that item was. Could have let me check, but instead he required me to bring in others.

 

[KP.]

I know that some shootings in major crime cites are with semi-automatic weapons, with reports locally of a bad guy using one in each hand to shot at police. This was the reason it made the news, they used one in each hand.

Most all shootings (at least with hand guns) are with semi-automatic weapons. There are very few single shot hand guns sold anymore.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Better picture

I want that for driving on the I35 in Texas.

 

[KP.]

My last post in this thread for a while. So you're telling me that if you were a cop and you were going to make an arrest and told the person to get out of their car or if they were already out and you told them to turn around and put their hands behind their back, and they refused, after you repeatedly asked them, that you would not take them down?

You spoke about questioning, not about arresting. To my knowledge, if someone is being placed under arrest, they pretty much have lost all right to not do as instructed (unless such instruction violates retained rights, such as 5th amendment protections).

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Serious question -- what the heck is that used for?

Busting down reinforced doors in crack houses, drug labs, and dealing with riot situations.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Ugly Truths

Blacks are more likely to kill Whites, than Whites kill blacks.

In 2005:
Blacks were 6x more likely than whites to be a victim of crime, and 7x more likely to be the offender.
They are also more likely to be involved in a drug related murder, or using a gun to kill or killing over an argument than whites. Blacks kill more people than whites over time.

Whites are more likely to know or be related to the victim than blacks, and more likely to kill in a sex, gang or workplace matter. They also prefer fire and poison to guns. Whites kill more people at once.

From 1976 to 2005 --

* 86% of white victims were killed by whites
* 94% of black victims were killed by blacks


http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm


Add to this the "I'm entitled" chip on the shoulder attitude, the poor grammar, and the macho attitude, and it explains why you have so many confrontations.

Like I said, Ugly Truths. Prove me wrong, call me a bigot, kiss my pale pink ***, I don't care. I laughed at the Chris Rock bit, I laughed as Carlos Mencia's, and I laughed at Eddie Murphy's that he done years ago where he got made up white and went "undercover".

"I wasn't doin nuthin". Yo! Holmes! The sign that you can't read because reading is "fo suckas" says why you need to move your ignorant and illiterate ***. The "Whatchu gonna do" 'tude is making me nervous, and the "in my face attitude" is causing me concern for my own wellbeing, as are your 5 friends who are trying to out macho each other and intimidate me. 1 me, 6 of you, might be why my hands on my gun, and my radio is calling for backup. Sit down, shut up, answer like a grown up and not a spoiled piss pot, and maybe we can all go home to our families tonight, and not in a bag over something stupid like "street cred".

But I'm a bigot for refering to the jobs done by one vocal groups ancestors. Ok, I'm sorry, they all worked at the Confederate Stars N Bars Bucks, I'm so stupid to get history wrong like that.

 

[KP.]

True.

But "I'm black, so all cop are out to get me" is equally lame.

I don't think all cops are out to get me. I think that the cops I've encountered in their official capacity have been. I've said again and again, i don't doubt that the majority of the police are good folks honestly trying to do a good job in the service of the community. But I've not met those people.

But lets back up a moment. You said you were in the military.
What unit, when, where'd ya serve, etc.

Went in in 1977, enlisted for 4 years for the GI bill. I went in as a cav scout, went to 2nd Cav in Europe and stayed there for almost 3 years, at which point I the so into OCS. Went to Benning for OCS then headed off for intel school. I went back to Europe where I worked counter-intel in Brussels for 2 years. I then was assigned to INSCOM.

Moving forward, maybe the problem is the huge ****ing chip on a rather large group of peoples shoulders, thinking that they are somehow entitled because up to 140 or so years ago their ancestors picked cotton and tobacco, and that respecting others is somehow beneath them as is proper grammar.

I don't think I'm entitled to anything more than any other person. Things like simple respect and a right to be assumed innocent.

Want to know how many times I was pulled over while at Benning because I was a driving a (very, very nice) 'vette? Wnat to know how many of those incidents started with being told to get out of the car and put my hands on the hood?

Want to know how many times that happened to any of my classmates?

 

[The Last Legionary]

I'd love to know.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Some other things I'd love to know.
How old are you?
How many times have you had these bad cop encounters?
How old were you then?
Where were you when this happened, what time was it, etc?

Might help people see into your head and better understand where you're coming from.

 

[Kreth]

Blacks were 6x more likely than whites to be a victim of crime

and

Whites are more likely to know or be related to the victim than blacks

Um... how does that work? :idunno:

 

[MJS]

You spoke about questioning, not about arresting. To my knowledge, if someone is being placed under arrest, they pretty much have lost all right to not do as instructed (unless such instruction violates retained rights, such as 5th amendment protections).

So given the tense nature of the situation, why not, if being questioned, do what you could to make things easier, for both you and the cop? Is taking your hands out of your jacket, where a knife could be, too much to ask?

 

[KP.]

Some other things I'd love to know.
How old are you?

50 next birthday ... sigh ;/

How many times have you had these bad cop encounters?
How old were you then?

Maybe a dozen or so. Starting when I was 10 or 11 (don't recall exactly) where a policeman decided he should beat my dog to death in front of me. (A very well trained fellow who was sitting quietly in front of me at the time when the guy pulled out his night stick - or whatever they're called these days - and crushed his head in)

Where were you when this happened, what time was it, etc?

South side of Chicago till I was 18, later when I was in Georgia, Virginia, and California. The last time I encountered a policeman (outside of the ludicrous TSA guys who I suspect are not properly lumped in with other law enforcement types) was in the early 1990's.

Add to this the "I'm entitled" chip on the shoulder attitude, the poor grammar, and the macho attitude, and it explains why you have so many confrontations.

I certainly don't have the best spelling or grammar when writing on the web. Oddly I don't spend much time crafting my words or proof-reading my texts. But my grammar when speaking is excellent. For example, I can explain to you in detail why your sentence there is poorly crafted and punctuated if you'd like. We can start with the lack of proper parallelism in your first three clauses. From there we can discuss your choice to use air quotes around a phrase that I have never uttered, thus falsely attributing words never spoken. But I won't accuse you of having poor grammar. Rather, I will assume that, like me, you simply don't have the time or inclination to edit a web post.

And I don't have no illusions to being entitled to anything beyond my legal rights and the simple respect due any human being. I'm not sure where you got that impression, but if you believe you've seen that in anything I've said here, then you have read far more into what I've written than what I've intended.

 

[Archangel M]

People are confusing "suspicion" with probable cause here. I am free to be as suspicious as I like, I cannot do whatever I want beacuse of it. Do you call the police when you see someone with a screwdriver looking in your car windows or do you wait till he breaks in and takes your GPS? Innocent till proven guilty and all that.

Not ID'ing yourself is going to make any good cop suspicious. Being suspicious is how we catch bad guys...sometimes they get away beacuse we cant find anything beyond suspicion.

 

[Archangel M]

K.P. is also under the impression that if you are not under arrest that you are "free to go". In some situations that is true, but he is forgetting (or ignorant of the fact) that there are also investigative detentions where a police officer may detain an individual for investigative purposes if the officer believes, based on a reasonable and articulable suspicion that the individual is engaged in criminal activity, even if there is no probable cause to make an arrest. The officer must be able to point to specific and articulable facts which warrant that intrusion. A court reviewing the legality of such a detention must look to the whole situation when determining whether detention is justified and consider if the detaining officers had a particularized and objective basis for suspecting the particular person stopped of criminal activity. Refusing to show ID alone would not be enough, but added into the mix can raise the "pot" so to speak.

Thats the law in most states.

 

[elder999]

"

I wasn't doin nuthin". Yo! Holmes! The sign that you can't read because reading is "fo suckas" says why you need to move your ignorant and illiterate ***. The "Whatchu gonna do" 'tude is making me nervous, and the "in my face attitude" is causing me concern for my own wellbeing, as are your 5 friends who are trying to out macho each other and intimidate me. 1 me, 6 of you, might be why my hands on my gun, and my radio is calling for backup. Sit down, shut up, answer like a grown up and not a spoiled piss pot, and maybe we can all go home to our families tonight, and not in a bag over something stupid like "street cred".

Ya know,20 pages, and I’ve pretty much stayed out of this.

I’m educated-not illiterate, maybe even over educated, and I couldn’t talk that way if I wanted to. I’ve got a fair amount of money, and the cars that go with it. My work brings me into contact with law-enforcement agencies pretty regularly, at least it used to, and I’m pretty thankful for the profession. That said, I’ve had encounters of quite few kinds with them in various jurisdictions, and they weren’t always pleasant.
Sometimes, cops are just NOT gonna believe the black guy bought the Mercedes with legitimately earned money if they don’t know him from television, I guess…:lol:

So, here are some of my personal “police stories.”

My family, or at least, my branch of my family, has really strong ties to Sag Harbor, New York-Cuffees were whalers that sailed out of Sag Harbor from the 18th through the 19th century. My great grandfather helped build the Presbyterian church there, and there is a street named after him. We went there for summers for most of my childhood. One summer, when I was 11 years old, we brought one of my friends from home with us. My friend and my brother found a bicycle under some bushes, that obviously belonged to some kids who were fishing, but they were bored, so they took it. I’d had my first bike stolen when I was 12, and, when I got a chance, I took it back, but the kids weren’t there. So I took it to the police station. The guy at the desk told me the chief was over at a restaurant-I should have left the bike there, but what the heck, I went to the restaurant…..

…..and got picked up by the chief for stealing the bike-and he was NOT going to believe that I was trying to return it, even after we got back to the station, and the guy at the desk told him I’d just been there, it was Put him back there with the rest of them ******s (“n” word)-which is where I was when my parents came and got me.

And that was my first encounter with the police.

K.P. is also under the impression that if you are not under arrest that you are "free to go". In some situations that is true, but he is forgetting (or ignorant of the fact) that there are also investigative detentions where a police officer may detain an individual for investigative purposes if the officer believes, based on a reasonable and articulable suspicion that the individual is engaged in criminal activity, even if there is no probable cause to make an arrest. The officer must be able to point to specific and articulable facts which warrant that intrusion. A court reviewing the legality of such a detention must look to the whole situation when determining whether detention is justified and consider if the detaining officers had a particularized and objective basis for suspecting the particular person stopped of criminal activity. Refusing to show ID alone would not be enough, but added into the mix can raise the "pot" so to speak.



Thats the law in most states.

Years later, I rode a hardtail Triumph from New York to Palm Beach, Florida. I was 19, had a good beard, and, except for my color, probably looked like an “outlaw biker.” No patch, but dubious. I was living with that. Now, my friend from boarding school, Lee, who would wind up being the first person in his family to have a job since his grandfather, lived in a mansion that (and I didn’t know at the time) actually had a sign that said, “Deliveries, service and police, use service entrance,” so that, and the noise being made at the time about having domestic servants carry special I.D. to prove they belonged in that area, were probably contributing factors to what happened. Anyway, I got pulled over by a Palm Beach officer. I was polite. I complied. He ran my license and registration and didn’t find anything untoward. He searched through all my stuff-I politely allowed him to-he didn’t find anything illegal, not even a knife. He asked me where I was going. I politely told him I was going to stay at the house of a friend, with the friend’s name and address, to which he replied, The hell you say., to which I said, no, really, call them. To which he replied, I’m going to have to take you in. I asked if I was under arrest, he said yes, and I asked what the charge was, and he said, Charge? How about I charge you with being a ****** on the side of the road on a sunny day?

After about six hours, I finally got to call my friend, he and his dad came and got me, and his dad had that cop fired.

Not too much later, maybe a year and a half, I was involved in an incident in the N.Y. subway-I'e posted about it before. The cops who caught the guys with my wallet and watch, brought them back to the platform to find me over the other guy’s bleeding body. Those cops were polite and supportive to me-awfully nice and professional. The same with the N.Y. State Troopers I dealt with on a couple of occasions, though I did once see a couple of those guys thump the heck out of a lady in a hospital waiting room, after making it pretty clear that they wanted to.

I like to speed-out here, you really can. I’ve been pulled over, and every time in the last 15 years, whether in N.M. or Colorado, the cops have been decent and professional-I’ve also gotten out of most of those tickets. While I’ve got a real good relationship with the Los Alamos Police now ( a couple of Lieutenants are long time students of mine) I’ve got a few really absurd stories about one cop in particular, who had it in for me-he doesn’t work for them anymore, and was known by all of them as a dick.I think, sometimes, it depends upon where you are-I’ve never had to deal with the Albuquerque cops, so who knows. Once, I got pulled over by a Colorado Trooper-I was doing about 95. He asked why I was going so fast, and I said, in my best whine, I've really gotta pee!. He let me go. I guess is what it comes down to-most cops are o.k., some are great,and some-some are real dicks. I don’t know which one I’m dealing with when I get pulled over, or have to otherwise deal with them, but I can control which of me they’re dealing with, so I do. I’m polite and compliant. But, unless I was speeding, I don’t know if they’re interested in me because a taillight is out, or because they think I’m a little too dark to be driving a Ferrari. :lol:​

​

But I'm a bigot for refering to the jobs done by one vocal groups ancestors. Ok, I'm sorry, they all worked at the Confederate Stars N Bars Bucks, I'm so stupid to get history wrong like that.

Which, I guess is what it comes down to-most cops are o.k., some are great, and some are real dicks. I don’t know which one I’m dealing with….​

​

​

....but, in your case, I’d hazard a guess.

 

[KP.]

So given the tense nature of the situation, why not, if being questioned, do what you could to make things easier, for both you and the cop? Is taking your hands out of your jacket, where a knife could be, too much to ask?

Again, I stated that I would probably comply with a polite request to do so. But I see no compelling reason why I should be required to do so. Again, the government has no right or authority to tell me how I may stand.

It's a sad state we find ourselves in where the government can't figure out that rights should be respected.

 

[jks9199]

Why?

I mean that as a serious question. Why should the government be able to tell me how I can or can not stand in public? I know you probably don't think of yourself as the government, but you are. When the state starts thinking they have the right to tell people how they may or may not stand, we've pretty well given up any meaningful rights at all.

That said, I would think that a polite request of something like, "Would you mind taking your hands out of your pockets, it's making me nervous." Or something along those lines would be complied with by most people. And failure to comply with a simple request would (and should) make the officer a bit more alert, but is it against the law for someone to stand how they like while answering a question?

Why should the government be able, at certain times and places, to be able to tell you that you may or may not stand there or do that?

Very bluntly, because we're not in KP.-land (or Bob-land or Jks-land or wherever-land). You're part of a society; the freest society on the planet, but that doesn't mean there are no rules. The First Amendment gives you the freedom to peacably assemble and to associate with whomever you please for any purpose that's not illegal, as well as the general right to say what you wish. But it still allows some regulation of where you may assemble (among other things, you can't assemble on private property without the owner's permission & consent), and even, in some cases, what you can say.

Moving from that general point -- as a cop, I AM allowed to control your movements to a certain degree if I have grounds to stop you. I generally will ask once, tell once, and then make you comply. I reserve the right to move up or down that scale as the circumstances demand -- because I am not required to risk being shot, knifed, or even simply hit. Being hit, shot, or stabbed is NOT in a cop's job description anymore than being in a crash is part of a delivery driver's job; it's simply a risk of the job. As hard as it is to believe, cops do have families that love them and want them to return home; we do all we can to make sure that happens!

 

[The Last Legionary]

The grammar, punctuation, and words that I use will vary depending on the situation that I find myself in. I may choose to act in a civilized manner or I dun mights picks redneckin. The decision is of course, mine to make. If you know the enemy and know yourself, your victory will not stand in doubt.

 

[theletch1]

I don’t know which one I’m dealing with when I get pulled over, or have to otherwise deal with them, but I can control which of me they’re dealing with, so I do.

Elder, I think that this quote makes quite possibly the most profound statement of the entire thread. You can't control any one else in a truly meaningful manner. You can, however, attempt to control their reactions to outside stimuli by not giving them any negative input.