Good Cop / Bad Cop

[elder999]

I just gotta ask... as often as you feel the need to comment like this, I wonder are you 11 years old and wondering what grownup sex is like? Cuz most "normal" grownups who are having regular sex don't feel the need to talk about this sort of thing in every other post. Overcompensate much?

Originally Posted by The Last Legionary
Officer Amy is coming over again and she's bringing some of her friends! We're playing "Hide the Baton" and California Carrie promised she'd show me how a CHIPPY rides! WOOF!

More likely, a nightstick isn't the only baton "Officer Amy" is swingin', and that's what he's compensating for. :lfao:

 

[MJS]

I've answered that several times. I am not required to stand at attention while speaking to the police either. The government has no authority to tell people how them must stand.

Never said you had to salute them. But, if someone is being questioned, they're acting very nervous, hands in pockets, etc., that makes the situation tense, even moreso for the cop, and if you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you. You complain about being treated like a POS by the police, yet you seem to think that simple things like this would not help the situation. If the cop pulls 4 people out of a car, and tells them to sit on the curb, stand mear his car, whatever, why not do it? So, you're saying they can or would be in the right to tell the cop to **** off, that they're not sitting on the curb or near his car and they'll stand where they want, is ok? Yeah, and then you wonder why people like that have issues with the cops? See KP, this is what you fail or dont want to see. Its that cocky dumbass attitude that people give off, that sets the pace for headaches. Is sitting on the curb for a few really the crime of the century? Is it really that much to ask?

I never said they are. I said that has been the limits of my experience. I've gone out of my way to assert, time and again, that I don't believe my experience defines all police; rather, I have repeatedly stated I believe most cops are hard working, honest folks trying to do a hard job well. But somehow you keep missing that.

blink*blink, blink* Hmm...still don't see your reply regarding YOU being in the position of the cop, facing someone with hands in pockets, alone, at night, while they fidget around. Would you wonder if they had a weapon? Would you want them to stand still, stop moving like they have ants in their pants and cooperate?

Go read that thread. I stated what I new to be an unpopular view, namely that there are police who enjoy hurting people. The discussion started on that point and several people came in and specifically said it is always the victim's fault. That universal claim is what I discussed, and I did not there, nor here, attempt to "bash the police" in general. On the flip side, it is hard to even engage the police and their representatives on issues with police violence because the immediate reaction is to deny that it happens, or at least it never happens where they are. Or if it does, the claim is always that it's dealt with immediately and harshly -- even though the evidence presented in criminology and sociology journals says otherwise. But, when one points to those sources, one is told that they are biased sources.

Never said that all cops were saints. Point out where I have? However, seeing that the focus of that topic was the knee on the neck, which was really the shoulder, I don't see how that is hurting someone, when there is a 99.99% chance that the guy on the ground with the knee on his back, was acting like an *******.

I always try to avoid violence if possible.

Hey, we're on the same page about something. Strange things do happen. Anyways...my point of that was, we're both agreeing that we do what we can to relax the situation. I'm applying that same idea to someone being detained by the cops.

DOC post?

Here.

And let's see .. as for the hands in the pocket thing, again I've repeatedly stated that if asked politely to remove my hands from my pockets, I'd almost certainly do so without reservation. My point is not that I wouldn't do it to make the officer feel safer, my point is that I wouldn't have to. Again, something I've said repeatedly.

And my link just proves that by acting suspicious, it leads to a more tense situation. Take your hands out, chances are the cop just relaxed a bit more. Turn your interior light on at night when you get pulled over, it eases his mind a bit more, now that he can see better inside the car. If that jackass inmate had not pulled away from me and let me look in his pocket like I was trying to do, he'd have saved himself alot of headache. But nooooo...instead he's gotta show off to the homeboys. In the end, he lost, just like I said. I gave him a chance, a choice, to do things the easy way...he chose the hard way.

 

[jks9199]

Yes, they do. Unless "driving while black" is an any way a legitimate reason in your book.



Strike two. It's called a "Terry Search" or a "Terry Stop," named after the case Terry v Ohio. They may not do so with a purpose to discover anything other than a weapon, and those are the one's that get thrown out.

In that case, three men were doing nothing more than pacing back in forth in front of a jewelry store. The officers stopped and searched them because they were acting suspiciously. They did not have probable cause. The Supreme Court ruled that for a frisk to happen, only reasonable suspicion was required.
[/COLOR]

Y'know... You can read the case for yourself. I posted a link to it early in this thread. They were doing quite bit more than simply pacing. The detective in the case made an assessment based on his training and experience that led him to believe there was a good possibility (NOT A CERTAINTY) that criminal activity was afoot. Let me make a couple of analogies that may help you to understand this. You go to the doctor, and give him or her a list of symptoms. Based on them, the doctor concludes you may have cancer, and sends you for appropriate tests. How's the doctor decide what to look for? He draws reasonable inferences and conclusions based on the evidence at hand. Or, your car isn't working quite right. So you go to a mechanic. He listens to what you have to say, turns the car on, and drives it around the block, then tells you that, quite fortunately, he knows what's wrong and it'll only take a boat payment to fix it... Again, he draws his conclusions based on things that, to you or me, are meaningless -- but seen in the context of his training and experience, speak volumes.

The courts have rejected many stops and many searches; I've had a few of mine questioned -- though I've never had one thrown out. Most will never make the news.

For the last time, I'm going to ask you a simple question that you keep ignoring: Is there even a possibility that the nature of your encounters with police officers today is being shaped by your own conduct and what YOU are bringing into it?

Oh, and "driving while black..." I dare you to try something. Find a parking lot reasonably close to the road; don't simply stop on the side of the road, or you're likely to have another one of those negative encounters. Once you're legally parked, with a decent view of the road way (preferably a highway -- but really, any road will do)... watch the cars. See how many times you can identify the race or gender of the driver. Try it at daytime and night... You just may find yourself a little surprised at how hard it is...

 

[KP.]

Y'know... You can read the case for yourself. . . he draws his conclusions based on things that . .. seen in the context of his training and experience, speak volumes.

I understand the case. The reality is that reasonable suspicion allows the police to do a pat down search for weapons. Now, it is disingenuous to suggest that a guy not taking his hands out his pocket is reason to take them to the ground (as was proposed above) but it's not enough to have a Terry search. However, once the Terry search is over and all you've found is a pocket comb, there's no reason or authority to stop the guy from putting his hands right on back in his pocket.

The courts have rejected many stops and many searches; I've had a few of mine questioned -- though I've never had one thrown out. Most will never make the news.

Certainly, any Terry search treads on the edge of legal searches. But the point being discussed is not about doing a search for evidence of criminal activity, but of making sure the officer is safe.

For the last time, I'm going to ask you a simple question that you keep ignoring: Is there even a possibility that the nature of your encounters with police officers today is being shaped by your own conduct and what YOU are bringing into it?

I seriously doubt it. When I've not done anything but sit with my hands on the steering wheel in plain view, as the officer walks up to the car, and the first words I hear are "Out of the car, boy." I fail to see what I did to elevate the issue.

Oh, and "driving while black..." I dare you to try something. Find a parking lot reasonably close to the road; don't simply stop on the side of the road, or you're likely to have another one of those negative encounters. Once you're legally parked, with a decent view of the road way (preferably a highway -- but really, any road will do)... watch the cars. See how many times you can identify the race or gender of the driver. Try it at daytime and night... You just may find yourself a little surprised at how hard it is...

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=7cbe83896f349fc7613fbcf0a35c2760

 

[Brian King]

JKS9199 wrote

“For the last time, I'm going to ask you a simple question that you keep ignoring: Is there even a possibility that the nature of your encounters with police officers today is being shaped by your own conduct and what YOU are bringing into it?”

FWIW-I heard this the first time in Spanish when I was a kid living in a very bad part of town and was having trouble down in So Cal.

If one person calls you a jackass it is they that are a jackass
When two people call you a jackass it is time to take a look at your behavior
When three call you jackass time to get a saddle and get used to eating hay.
Or it went something like that. It has helped me keep things in perspective and not take it personally when one person insults and has helped me gut check when more than one has issued the same insult.



Warmest Regards
Brian King

 

[The Last Legionary]

Yes, they do. Unless "driving while black" is an any way a legitimate reason in your book.

Strike two. It's called a "Terry Search" or a "Terry Stop," named after the case Terry v Ohio. They may not do so with a purpose to discover anything other than a weapon, and those are the one's that get thrown out.

In that case, three men were doing nothing more than pacing back in forth in front of a jewelry store. The officers stopped and searched them because they were acting suspiciously. They did not have probable cause. The Supreme Court ruled that for a frisk to happen, only reasonable suspicion was required.
[/color]

Sorry mate, those are reasons. Never said they had to be good, or legit, but "because I'm an *** hole" is a reason.

In case I wasn't clear earlier-yes, they do. Of course, to some-skin color is a "reason," but there's nothing reasonable about being on the receiving end of that sort of behavior, and that's what it is, bad behavior-though some might call it "good police work."

Yeah, and sometimes they have to put 41 bullets in a guy pulling out his I.D., or shove a plunger up someone's rectum to "get put away by the system," and sometimes they do those things and they don't get "put away by the system.

Funny, what color were the "victims" in those particular "crimes?"

Funny story-I was back in New York, walking my dog, in my own neighborhood. A house had been burglarized, the cops were around-same two State Troopers that I saw thump the crap out of a lady in the emergency room waiting room-and they stopped me and asked what I was doing-I told them I was going for a walk, whereupon it was Oh, he's going for a walk-this not three doors from my own house. Whereupon they searched me-didn't ask,didn't ask me to empty my pockets, just started sticking their hands in my field jacket-all the time telling me they could, because they had "probable 'cause." Never mind that I was walking towards the house that had been burglarized, and was in my own neighborhood, and had my goddam dog with me -somehow, in the face of all those improbabilities, they had "probable 'cause."

All too often, probable cause is, well, because you're there.

Bad cops get away with it for years before they "get taken down." Sometimes, they retire. If you look at my earlier post, I could just as easily say that I'm treating all cops like "bad cops" until I find out otherwise-in fact, that is what I'm doing: I'm treating all cops like cops-good or bad, but I'm assuming the worst almost every time.

Sorry, dude-I'm not on K.P.'s side on this, but I'm not on yours either.Ya can't have any of my bubblegum. :lol: Odds are pretty good-based on what you've posted-that I wouldn't give you water if you were crawling through the desert-in uniform.:lfao:

That's ok. I'll wait until the local convenience store is robbed, then show up and help myself like the CSI's do on tv. Yes, bad cops get away with it. Tell me again, how many cold cases are there, where others get away too? Alot I think. Only took 20 years? to ID Walsh's kids killer, and he still got away with it. Life sucks sometimes.

I just gotta ask... as often as you feel the need to comment like this, I wonder are you 11 years old and wondering what grownup sex is like? Cuz most "normal" grownups who are having regular sex don't feel the need to talk about this sort of thing in every other post. Overcompensate much?

[/color]

More likely, a nightstick isn't the only baton "Officer Amy" is swingin', and that's what he's compensating for. :lfao:

So, you're saying hands that big, and an adams apple aren't normal n a woman? OH MY GOD!!!!!! No wonder my *** hurts! Here I thought her voice was so deep because she's from Newfoundland! AAAAHHHH!!!

Oh, seriously, why is it some people, usually the ones who couldn't get a date with their own hand, or laid at the Bunny Ranch if they were covered in diamonds, has to dis someone in a wonderful open relationship with a great lady, and her friends, one of who ownes a baby oil supply shop? It's just not very nice. I could post pics, but you wouldn't believe I didn't just download them from the interweb.

Oh, and for those too slow, too stupid, or too dense to get it, I'm a smart ***! Ah Duh! I'm here to have fun, and if I piss some folks off, and make others laugh, and others think, hey yo! it's all in good fun. Now while I do wear a uniform, it doesn't have a big scribbly M on it, and I don't ask about fries or cheese. But it's stressful, this place is relaxing, and you're all entertaining. Even the whiney pathetic puppy who needs to get out more and masturbate less.

TaTa!


I now return you to your normal program here "While the Stubornly Ignorant Refuse to see"

:flame:

 

[MJS]

Went in in 1977, enlisted for 4 years for the GI bill. I went in as a cav scout, went to 2nd Cav in Europe and stayed there for almost 3 years, at which point I the so into OCS. Went to Benning for OCS then headed off for intel school. I went back to Europe where I worked counter-intel in Brussels for 2 years. I then was assigned to [/color]INSCOM.

I'm sorry, whats your date of birth again?

 

[Drac]

I just gotta ask... as often as you feel the need to comment like this, I wonder are you 11 years old and wondering what grownup sex is like? Cuz most "normal" grownups who are having regular sex don't feel the need to talk about this sort of thing in every other post. Overcompensate much?

At least he's getting some..How you doing in that department???

 

[Cryozombie]

At least he's getting some..How you doing in that department???

LOL. Well, do you hear me talking about it? And What did I say about adults getting enough not needing to talk about it?

Draw your own conclusions.

 

[Drac]

LOL. Well, do you hear me talking about it? And What did I say about adults getting enough not needing to talk about it?

Draw your own conclusions.

If anyone want to advertize its ok with me..

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Well, I think I did find a photo of TLL online.
Now who doesn't find that arresting? You'll not the size of the one on the lefts nightstick btw.


Hey, I'm not the one who brought all this up.

 

[Archangel M]

Driving While Black...

While I do not doubt that it happens, as a matter of fact Im pretty confident that it happens in some places...but I think that sometimes (maybe even many times) its either tossed out to get cops to stop looking any further or its just ASSumed by the person accusing the cop of it.

If some citizen calls the police saying a black male was observed going through his car and I pull onto the 3 AM street and you are the only person out (who also happens to be black) Im NOT hassling you "because you are black". If a person is being locked-up because they were observed stealing and caught in the parking lot with the property in their pockets dont start with the "you racist crackers are only stopping me because Im black!" routine to get them to back down (like THAT works...maybe with loss prevention but not us.)

If I say something like "its as clear as black and white", or say anything else with the word "black" in it...spare me the "OH ITS A BLACK THING HUH??" (yes I have heard stuff like that).

If this stuff is a conscious ploy or its actually believed by the person saying it, I dont know. But what it does is hurt those innocent people who actually may have been improperly stopped because of their skin color.

 

[jks9199]

Certainly, any Terry search treads on the edge of legal searches. But the point being discussed is not about doing a search for evidence of criminal activity, but of making sure the officer is safe.

Assuming the officer has justification, a Terry stop does NOT "tread on the edge of (a) legal search." The 4th Amendment is not a blanket protection against searches -- but only against UNREASONABLE search and seizure. This country's courts, at all levels, have consistently held that a stop based on facts and circumstances which would lead a trained and experienced police officer to suspect criminal activity are not inherently unreasonable.

For the last time, I'm going to ask you a simple question that you keep ignoring: Is there even a possibility that the nature of your encounters with police officers today is being shaped by your own conduct and what YOU are bringing into it?

I seriously doubt it. When I've not done anything but sit with my hands on the steering wheel in plain view, as the officer walks up to the car, and the first words I hear are "Out of the car, boy." I fail to see what I did to elevate the issue.

Really? There's not the slightest possibility that YOU brought your own expectations and history into the encounter, and that it had some sort of effect on the course of that encounter? I can't really address the two examples you've given; I clearly wasn't there. I do suspect neither was recent... but I will make it clear that I condemn the first example you gave (the officer killing your dog). If everything is as you related it -- there was no justification, even in the late 60s or early 70s for such an act. It is possible that some officer today might address a black person as "boy" -- but I'd be rather surprised. Just like I'd be surprised at anyone else addressing any black man or child as "boy" in that manner. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen -- but I find it unlikely.

I know that the history and background I bring to an encounter will influence it; there are people that I know I will be fighting as soon as I have to deal with them -- because our mutual history has proven this. Just like I know that your personal history is influencing how you read anything I write here.

At this point -- I'm done. I'll happily discuss anything except law enforcement with you, KP. But until you admit that there at least exists the possibility that you bring part of the issue upon yourself -- there's simply no point. You simply won't listen, and I'm not going to bash my head against a wall.

I'll be glad to answer other people's questions about law enforcement, and even to continue responding in this thread.

 

[Drac]

At this point -- I'm done. I'll happily discuss anything except law enforcement with you, KP. But until you admit that there at least exists the possibility that you bring part of the issue upon yourself

Like that's ever gonna happen

there's simply no point. You simply won't listen, and I'm not going to bash my head against a wall.I'll be glad to answer other people's questions about law enforcement, and even to continue responding in this thread.

You beat me too it JKS...

 

[theletch1]

Attention all users:

This thread has generated quite a bit of tension between members. All users should take a moment to refresh their memories of the rules of the board. While it is completely understandable that people on both sides of this argument will hold to their beliefs rather strongly it should also be remembered that the person on the other end of the keyboard holds their own beliefs just as strongly as a result of their own life experiences. As we continue with this thread it is of the utmost importance that all members stop to consider that before posting. This thread has the potential to offer insight into "how the other side lives" as it were. Take advantage of the rare opportunity that you have (on both sides of the argument) to ask questions, discuss problems AND possible solutions with an open mind and the understanding that you are talking to another human being. If this thread degenerates into a slug fest it will be locked.

Attention all users:

-Jeff Letchford
-MT super moderator

 

[Cryozombie]

Ok.

Since this is the Good Cop / Bad Cop thread, I'll share a random "Good Cop" story that I have. I still hold to the opinion that many cops tend to expect people to be scumbags and treat them all like such, but here is an example of a couple being reletivley cool to me.

I got off work one day, and it had started to snow. On the way home, I have to climb a moderatly steep hill and it was so slick my car slid to the shoulder and got stuck. Soon enough a patrol car came by and the two officers inside came out and approached me. (I was out of the vehicle with my flashers on at that time, trying to call for a tow). They asked for my Licence and insurance, so I gave it to them, and they ran my plate, and information. The one cop said to me "Why are out in this weather?" and I told him I was on my way home from work. I told him I was calling for a tow, when his partner came back and gave my my docs back. He said "if she gets in and steers, can we push the car up this hill, and back on the road?" so I said, sure, why not. (Part of me was thinking they just wanted an excuse to get in and check the interior of the car, but I had nothing to hide, so I figured what the hell...) She got in, and me and the other cop pushed the car about 10 feet off the shoulder and up the hill the rest of the way. I thanked them, and they let me go about my business, and I made it home in the snowstorm without calling a tow truck because of their aid.

 

[shesulsa]

I've never been treated more politely than by our local Vancouver PD with the incidences of my son disappearing, getting violent (officer who responded on that one had a nephew with autism). We have a couple of local Sheriffs that are great about helping find John when he runs off - very polite, very careful to brief officers who are going to look for him about handling him. One retired officer was just wonderful to us and I miss him terribly.

Another good cop story: I was getting on the freeway in my van when my youngest was rocking in his car seat, trying to make it wiggle back and forth. Well, he got it to sway, all right - the seat belt came completely undone and he was lying on his side, strapped into the chair. My cell phone rang and I was trying to tell the other party I'd call them back. Kept trying to keep my youngest son calm, give him directions to stay where he was until I could get off of the freeway. Phone kept ringing, traffic was crazy, I was nervous and scared as hell when I saw the lights. I realized, in my tension, I was doing 85 mph! He wrote me for 72 which knocked my fee down by almost $200 and followed me to the next ramp.

Another good cop story: Officers showed up at our house at about 3am with an arrest warrant for my brother - I was about 20, living in Orange County, California and had already had a friend who'd been stopped by an impersonator. Her story was a bad one. When I asked the police for photo ID alongside their badges, one cop started to become belligerent, asking why the badge wasn't good enough for me. I calmly explained my concerns, told them about my friend. The accompanying officer had taken her report and was familiar with the case, so he called him off and said, "no problem," they provided their foto IDs. I matched the badge numbers and their faces quickly and let them in.

That officer understood the dangers to civilians, strove to keep trust with the public and did what he needed to do without any attitude or ire. I wrote a thank-you letter to him, his sergeant, the COP and sent a copy to the editor of the Register.

I said it before and I'll say it again - civilians need to become educated as to what they can and cannot, should and should not do when confronted by a police officer. Civilians should know exactly what their rights are, become familiar with questioning tactics and have a lawyer secured in case anything unplanned happens. Civilians should have someone to call - their GO-TO, one phone call and that person needs to know what to do when called. Educate yourself and understand the escalation of force policy in your precinct, county and state. Officers need to understand that because of bad press and misinformation that many civilians will be mistrustful and accusatory. Officers need to understand that the defensive attitude that you are always right and everyone else must not be telling the whole truth is what keeps you in this position in the public eye. Officers need to realize that to get beyond this and make your jobs easier and safer for everyone - yourselves as well as the populous - that you need to talk to people like they are people, not animals. Not listening to them is not the path to this. Officers need to realize that most people appreciate police more than is demonstrated and more than they know.

:asian:

 

[Archangel M]

And the thing "civilians" (non-police..whatever...some people take offense at the term) have to remember is that after just a few years on the job, police officers have been lied to by moms, priests, kids, teachers, nurses, doctors, judges, attorneys and just about everybody else that they have run into. After a few instances of believing someones story, going the distance for them then getting let down, cynisism is a natural result. So when we act like we "are not getting the whole truth..." there is a reason for it.


"It's a basic truth of the human condition that everybody lies. The only variable is about what." -House 121: Three Stories

 

[shesulsa]

And the thing "civilians" (non-police..whatever...some people take offense at the term) have to remember is that after just a few years on the job, police officers have been lied to by moms, priests, kids, teachers, nurses, doctors, judges, attorneys and just about everybody else that they have run into. After a few instances of believing someones story, going the distance for them then getting let down, cynisism is a natural result. So when we act like we "are not getting the whole truth..." there is a reason for it.


"It's a basic truth of the human condition that everybody lies. The only variable is about what." -House 121: Three Stories

Absolutely.

 

[Cryozombie]

Civilians should know exactly what their rights are, become familiar with questioning tactics and have a lawyer secured in case anything unplanned happens.

The only problem with that is that often, even if the Civilians do know, the Cops often don't or don't care.

Here's a clear case that came up after training on Tuesday night. An Employee with the Sheriffs department told us a story about an officer who came in boasting about how she got a gun off the street. Apparently this gentleman had a gun on the seat of his car, and a clip of ammunition in the same case with it. So he was arrested and they confiscated his weapon. Well... this raised a question with the employee telling the story... Did the guy have a FOID (an illinois gun permit basically) which he did... and if the gun was in a case, and was unloaded, why was their an arrest and confiscation. Her answer was because he had an accessable firearm with a loaded magazine with it. He asked her if she was familiar with Illinois gun transportation law, and she said yes, it has to be inaccessable to the driver with the ammo seperate. He said "actually that's not how the law reads, and you can have it on the seat with the clip right there as long as it's fully encased, and unloaded." She argued it with him and he offered to show her both of the Statutes that apply to Illinois law (we have 2, a criminal law and a forestry law) and she said declined stating she was just happy to get another gun off the streets.

So basically... her ignornace of the law (and obvious gun-bais) landed this guy in jail, and, on top of that will cost him money to fight it in court and have it thrown out, even tho he knew his rights and responsibility under the law and followed it.