EXACTLY!Toasty said:Actually isn't that the goal of the martial arts teacher? To make the student better than the teacher?
anyway, just my thoughts
Rob
Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
EXACTLY!Toasty said:Actually isn't that the goal of the martial arts teacher? To make the student better than the teacher?
anyway, just my thoughts
Rob
Toasty said:You know all this "rank" and "political" crap area among the reasons why I have nothing to do with kenpo anymore.
Heck, even when i thought i asked a pretty straight forward opinion-type question, I had to "define" it like 3 times cause kenpo guys seem to always overthink things.
Props again by the way to (i believe it was) Karazenpo for actually answering it!
Why is everyone so concerned about who is higher and according to who?
Let me ask you this, who promoted Mr. Parker to his 2nd thru 10th rankings?
Who promoted Mr. Chow to his rankings?
Who promoted Mr. Mitose to his rankings?
And on a somewhat more serious note, is there really a difference (that anyone could tell {without looking at the stripes} between a 5th & 6th degree blackbelt? How about 6th or 7th degree?)
P.S. Doc, this does not necessarily refer to whomever you are speaking of, but I think that it is possible for a student to learn & understand an art better than the founder (especially if the founder is deceased).
Here is why, by the reasoning that it took the founder of the art/style a series of trial & error experiments (for lack of a better term) whereas, for the student, this learning curve is greatly reduced and he/she can concentrate on the art itself and getting better at something that already exists.
Actually isn't that the goal of the martial arts teacher? To make the student better than the teacher?
anyway, just my thoughts
Rob
Dionysianexile said:Well, this is a big topic for my first post here, but im going to try anyways.
I am quite new to the system, been in it less than a year. I am currently training under Professor Graham Lelliot. Mr. Lelliot has been in the system for a long time, and had his black belt longer than Ive been alive (Im 20 btw). Anyways, a few of the students asked him about black belt ranking one night, and inquired as to why he is only 6th degree when ther are others who have their 9th that started training after he recieved his BB. Mr. Lelliot told us about how BB advancements happened, and that he figured he could probably go before a board and do his thing and they would advance him, but he didnt see any necessity for it. He also told us that these younger and less experianced BBs stand out at tournaments, as they are quite timid, and often afraid to actually get out on the floor. I guess what im getting at is that what it comes down to, is that no matter how much red is on your belt, it is how one conducts themself, and what they can offer their community. As a student in the system, I believe that a person with a BB is supposed to be a teacher, and as a student, I try to learn as much as possible from my teacher. If my teacher cannot conduct themselves in an honorable manner, I cannot see myself maintaining respect for them. Thankfully, Mr. Lelliot has been nothing more than an excellent teacher. Ok, im done.
P.S. I look forward to learning from you all. Thank you.
Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:As the years have dripped by, I've sat in the shadows and watched some really incredible kenpo instructors never advance their rank, because their personal instructors have passed on to the next life, retired, or some such thing. I've also watched guys with credentials like, "Kenpo green belt; judo black belt (1st degree)" move on to found their own styles as 10th degree black belts in stuff like "American ju-kenpo", lacking advanced understandings of either.
Martial artists who use their standing in community for vocational purposes will always have a motivation for wearing a rank that's one stripe higher than the next guy in the yellow pages. The uninformed public looking for classes does not know how to differentiate the quality of training from the purported expertise of the trainer. So they look for the guy with the most/highest certs on the wall. This will always be a problem.
The opposite extreme is occupied by folks who have exceeded the status on their belts, but because they train in small, unaffiliated circles, will never promote. Curiously, these are usually the guys who couldn't care less about promoting...they would take more pride in being a seriously kick-a$s 3rd degree then a crappy 10th.
I will probably die at the same rank I am now, and I'm more than OK with that. I haven't gotten better with time; I've gotten slower and more unrehearsed. As I get back into it and knock the rust off the hinges, I may get back to (or perhaps surpass) where I was when I left off. That will, in my eyes, only make me not a fool. If I can get back to being really freaking good at what I know, and clean it up with learning from some of the most excellent seniors I have the pleasure to be acquainted with, I can die happy and with my honor intact knowing that I wore my middlin' stripes with pride.
Pride and ego alone are not bad things. It's in where you place it.
I find my pride in being the best I can with what I know, and being able to "represent" capably. Currently, not too proud, because I'm seriously outta shape and outta practice (though I can still give the upstart youngsters a run for their money ;-). But I still have a gift of knowledge and information to pass on to upcoming generations beginning their journeys...of that, I'm proud.
Ego is what drives us to be bold participants in the field of competition in which we make our respective livings (how successful are sales reps who aren't full of themselves?). I would encourage some of you to consider that the traits compelling these men to do what they have are not innately bad, but rather only the individual choices on how to present these traits. Don't bemoan ego or pride in the arts...it's what drives champions to make arts famous enough to gain public interest for propogations sake, and instructors confident enough to stick it out there and share their knowledge with other people...like you and I. Bemoan instead the outliers who buy too much of their own BS. That's how this silliness gets started.
Dr. Dave
It occurs to me that pride is most often (maybe always) more a self made value judgement of, and frequently a more or less subtle justification of, acts arisen out of an ego; may or may not be justified, but as such it's removed from the reality of the situation, pretty much an author/actor/audience of one, potentially not so good in a contest of two. "Pride goeth before a fall", says the old saying; "Don't look back", says the song; "Just do it", says Nike, "Your bill, Sir", says reality.Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:As the years have dripped by, I've sat in the shadows and watched some really incredible kenpo instructors never advance their rank, because their personal instructors have passed on to the next life, retired, or some such thing. I've also watched guys with credentials like, "Kenpo green belt; judo black belt (1st degree)" move on to found their own styles as 10th degree black belts in stuff like "American ju-kenpo", lacking advanced understandings of either.
Martial artists who use their standing in community for vocational purposes will always have a motivation for wearing a rank that's one stripe higher than the next guy in the yellow pages. The uninformed public looking for classes does not know how to differentiate the quality of training from the purported expertise of the trainer. So they look for the guy with the most/highest certs on the wall. This will always be a problem.
The opposite extreme is occupied by folks who have exceeded the status on their belts, but because they train in small, unaffiliated circles, will never promote. Curiously, these are usually the guys who couldn't care less about promoting...they would take more pride in being a seriously kick-a$s 3rd degree then a crappy 10th.
I will probably die at the same rank I am now, and I'm more than OK with that. I haven't gotten better with time; I've gotten slower and more unrehearsed. As I get back into it and knock the rust off the hinges, I may get back to (or perhaps surpass) where I was when I left off. That will, in my eyes, only make me not a fool. If I can get back to being really freaking good at what I know, and clean it up with learning from some of the most excellent seniors I have the pleasure to be acquainted with, I can die happy and with my honor intact knowing that I wore my middlin' stripes with pride.
Pride and ego alone are not bad things. It's in where you place it.
I find my pride in being the best I can with what I know, and being able to "represent" capably. Currently, not too proud, because I'm seriously outta shape and outta practice (though I can still give the upstart youngsters a run for their money ;-). But I still have a gift of knowledge and information to pass on to upcoming generations beginning their journeys...of that, I'm proud.
Ego is what drives us to be bold participants in the field of competition in which we make our respective livings (how successful are sales reps who aren't full of themselves?). I would encourage some of you to consider that the traits compelling these men to do what they have are not innately bad, but rather only the individual choices on how to present these traits. Don't bemoan ego or pride in the arts...it's what drives champions to make arts famous enough to gain public interest for propogations sake, and instructors confident enough to stick it out there and share their knowledge with other people...like you and I. Bemoan instead the outliers who buy too much of their own BS. That's how this silliness gets started.
Dr. Dave
dogboy said:Karazenpo is one of the worst offenders.
dogboy said:I too have the documentation, the message I sent back then (July 2003), that you are referring to was one written personally by Mr. Gascon to Mr. Pesare, and sent to several others as a copy. I DIDN'T WRITE THE OFFENSIVE OR ACCUSATIOAL CONTENT, I simply asked what he (Mr. Pesare) thought about it. Why he had you respond to it, I don't know. Again, I didn't write it, he did. So, if he promoted you (Mr. Gascon), then you should believe what he wrote. I won't post it here, because it is very negative to Mr. Pesare, and I DO have a lot of respect for Mr. Pesare. However, my friends in RI tell he isn't pleased with you anymore. George Pesare is one of the most respected me in New England when it comes to martial arts, whether Gascon made him a whatever doesn't even matter. I would study with Mr. Pesare even if he said he created all of his material.
I have heard several stories of Karazenpo promoting people, only to take it away later, or to start a negative campaign about the person.
I have no beef with you on a personal level. This is a forum, where any and all opinions can and should be discussed, and you shouldn't becaome offensive about them. My opinion is as stated.
Relative to viewing your certificates : ) I don't actually care what certificates you have. But I would like to meet you.