Fraud.....

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Hmmm....

Didn't Great Grand Master Ed Parker create his own system from Old Pine Tree Kenpo / Kajukenbo and state that he had made enough changes to the original system that it was no longer that system and renamed it "American Kenpo" ?

Didn't Sonny Gascon do the same thing?

How about George Pesare?

or Nick Cerio?

I dont see anything wrong with working for years, being good at what you do and then teaching what works for you. The problem comes from the many , many teachers claiming to be all knowing grand masters. Every single one of them and you and I are still learning, changing, adapting as we grow in what we do. How can any of us be a "Great Grand Master"? Listen you get that lofty in your self worth and then we do have conflict.

The greatest teachers I have ever had are the ones who were on the floor with me, trading shots, spilling blood, helping each other up and trusting each other with shots to vital targets so we could LEARN!

When you run a business, run a business. When you run a school run a school. When you combine them something will suffer because its like oil and water they do not mix. Business will increase when set the curriculum up for the mass, business will decrease when you set up the curriculum for knowledge, growth and the production of good fighters. It has always been this way.

A note on Jeff Speakman. I trained with him on two sperate occassions during seminars he put out here in the Chicago area back in the mid 90's and he was a solid 5th BB. He was also a high ranking BB in Goju Ryu? at the time I believe. He knows his stuff. What ever has gone on since then I do not know, but as far as my book goes he is a solid 5th in American Kenpo. No fraud there.

Ed Parker was a unique student, and took his art beyond anything his teachers had done previously. Personally, I'd be hard pressed to obtain his knowledge of the system enough to create another by the time I die.

Yep, I'm on the floor with students, having my own blood spilled and a very bruised body in the quest for excellence in the people I train, it's the only way I can perceive it. If they step up with me they deserve to have my knowledge, all that I can give them, to make them a better Kenpoist in years to come. Sadly, there are only a few that take me up on the offer. Kenpophobics, scared to become better at what they do and the fear of invalidation that what they do won't work. If it does, I congratulate them, if it doesn't, then the work begins.

DarK LorD

 

[tmonis]

Dear Prof. Todd,

I hope you didn't find my previous offensive. I didn't mean that way.! What set America from the rest is INNOVATION. You have your own ideas and put them together and show it to the world.

it's a beautiful thing to do. There is no doubt that you started this thread with a good intention and I am not here to cricitize you for what you do.

Hopefully, we can be cool about it.

Thunderbolt: We are all good my man. Nothing to worry about.

Old Fat: I did not seek vailadation from anyone, it just came to me. Someone saw what i was doing, they suggested I send it in more or less as dare to see what would happen. I did and then I got a few visits from Kenpo and Ju Jitsu stylist to prove to them what I had was different. They found that it was. So that's what happened. It really does not matter one way or the other. Just know like you I am a student and will always be a student. Training just like everyone else. I would never claim to be as good as all the Senior Grand Masters.

It is all good everyone. Have a great week.

Prof. Todd

 

[GAB]

Damn that was good. That's exactly what Parker did. He created a commercial Kenpo (karate) separate and apart (a diversion) from his personally evolving Kenpo that also continued from the Chinese. The Kenpo that most are familiar with is, naturally, the "business" version from sheer numbers alone. I've always made the distinction between the two, and have often been basted for it. The newbies like to feel what they learned is THE Kenpo instead of A Kenpo. "There's room for everyone to study at the level of their choosing." - Ed Parker Sr.

Hi Doc.

I liked the original response also, I like your's even better. You have been saying that all along and only a few are really aware of your message.

Have a good one Doc.

Regards, Gary

 

[GAB]

Ed Parker was a unique student, and took his art beyond anything his teachers had done previously. Personally, I'd be hard pressed to obtain his knowledge of the system enough to create another by the time I die.

Yep, I'm on the floor with students, having my own blood spilled and a very bruised body in the quest for excellence in the people I train, it's the only way I can perceive it. If they step up with me they deserve to have my knowledge, all that I can give them, to make them a better Kenpoist in years to come. Sadly, there are only a few that take me up on the offer. Kenpophobics, scared to become better at what they do and the fear of invalidation that what they do won't work. If it does, I congratulate them, if it doesn't, then the work begins.

DarK LorD

Yep, I just wish I was closer, I am going to try to get you up in my neck of the woods but there might not be a place you are willing to come to.
Is there any schools that are affiliated with your group, up in the Sacramento area or within a hundred mile radius???

I will be down over the Holiday's. Maybe I can come in incognito and peek???

How much, or many shots do I have to take or give for watching my back, wait if you were teaching you would be able to watch out for me...LOL...

I am late and I got to go train, Bye..

Regards, Gary

 

[BallistikMike]

Ed Parker was a unique student, and took his art beyond anything his teachers had done previously. Personally, I'd be hard pressed to obtain his knowledge of the system enough to create another by the time I die.

Yep, I'm on the floor with students, having my own blood spilled and a very bruised body in the quest for excellence in the people I train, it's the only way I can perceive it. If they step up with me they deserve to have my knowledge, all that I can give them, to make them a better Kenpoist in years to come. Sadly, there are only a few that take me up on the offer. Kenpophobics, scared to become better at what they do and the fear of invalidation that what they do won't work. If it does, I congratulate them, if it doesn't, then the work begins.

DarK LorD

I would say that the five men that developed Kajukenbo did the same thing in a more efficient manner under real conditions.

I would say that Helio Gracie did the same thing.

I would say that Remy Presas did the same thing.

I could go on with various different systems. What I see is that the world as a whole got a lot smaller and information was easily passed, yet also easily kept in the dark. Currently with the web, better aircraft, more money as a whole we are seeing it again.

Ed Parker was THE MOST eclectic MA's at the time, in the spot light, yet his students to date do not want to experiment like him, they want to stay loyal and traditional. JKD crowd also.

With the mentality of saying you will be hard pressed to achieve his level ... well you will be.

Be safe

 

[Doc]

I would say that the five men that developed Kajukenbo did the same thing in a more efficient manner under real conditions.

I would say that Helio Gracie did the same thing.

I would say that Remy Presas did the same thing.

I could go on with various different systems. What I see is that the world as a whole got a lot smaller and information was easily passed, yet also easily kept in the dark. Currently with the web, better aircraft, more money as a whole we are seeing it again.

ED PARKER SR. - YES
KAJUKENBO FOUNDERS - YES
REMY PRESAS - YES
GRACIE (ANY OF THEM) - NO! What he (they) do they do very well, however it is not innovative, just good in THEIR venue which is sport competition. They don't do anything new, they just do it well. Apples and hand grenades to the other gentlemen.

Ed Parker was THE MOST eclectic MA's at the time, in the spot light, yet his students to date do not want to experiment like him, they want to stay loyal and traditional.

That is an awfully definitive statement that obviously encompasses (I'm guessing) a lot of people you have never met nor have knowledge of what they teach. I suggest you confine your expertise to those you have personal knowledge of. I can state, fairly confidently, that I teach Ed Parker's Kenpo and that it's a good bet you would have a problem understanding or performing the basic functions of the teaching curriculum we utilize.

Further I would like a description of your understanding of Ed Parker's "traditional" version of Kenpo that "everyone" is adhering to, because I'm not quite sure what that is in your mind.

JKD crowd also.

Here you would be wrong. There are many different "versions" of JKD that have been taught since the passing of Bruce Lee, and ALL of them are the result of innovations by those that promote them. The reason for this is that JKD is not nor has it ever been a definitive "style" or "art." JKD was what Bruce considered a "training concept." A philosophical approach that encompasses a personal journey and exploration of various arts in an effort to determine what is worthy of inclusion into the individuals personal expression of the concept. Wow! Does that sound familiar. If he had only stayed with Parker just a tad longer.

With the mentality of saying you will be hard pressed to achieve his level ... well you will be.

Clearly Mr. O'Briant does not need me to defend him. That being said, acknowledging the vast amount of knowledge inherent in the concept of that which he studies is NOT a hinderance to excelled excellence. His statement is about the amount of information that he feels he may never be capable of absorbing ALL of. Ed Parker felt the same way and he was right and so is Mr. O'Briant. However surpassing your teacher is still a possiblity without "knowing it all" considering his teacher and his teachers teacher "didn't/don't know it all."

 

[BallistikMike]

ED PARKER SR. - YES
KAJUKENBO FOUNDERS - YES
REMY PRESAS - YES
GRACIE (ANY OF THEM) - NO! What he (they) do they do very well, however it is not innovative, just good in THEIR venue which is sport competition. They don't do anything new, they just do it well. Apples and hand grenades to the other gentlemen.



That is an awfully definitive statement that obviously encompasses (I'm guessing) a lot of people you have never met nor have knowledge of what they teach. I suggest you confine your expertise to those you have personal knowledge of. I can state, fairly confidently, that I teach Ed Parker's Kenpo and that it's a good bet you would have a problem understanding or performing the basic functions of the teaching curriculum we utilize.

Further I would like a description of your understanding of Ed Parker's "traditional" version of Kenpo that "everyone" is adhering to, because I'm not quite sure what that is in your mind.

Here you would be wrong. There are many different "versions" of JKD that have been taught since the passing of Bruce Lee, and ALL of them are the result of innovations by those that promote them. The reason for this is that JKD is not nor has it ever been a definitive "style" or "art." JKD was what Bruce considered a "training concept." A philosophical approach that encompasses a personal journey and exploration of various arts in an effort to determine what is worthy of inclusion into the individuals personal expression of the concept. Wow! Does that sound familiar. If he had only stayed with Parker just a tad longer.


Clearly Mr. O'Briant does not need me to defend him. That being said, acknowledging the vast amount of knowledge inherent in the concept of that which he studies is NOT a hinderance to excelled excellence. His statement is about the amount of information that he feels he may never be capable of absorbing ALL of. Ed Parker felt the same way and he was right and so is Mr. O'Briant. However surpassing your teacher is still a possiblity without "knowing it all" considering his teacher and his teachers teacher "didn't/don't know it all."

Ok Doc

1. Addressing the Gracies. I am no fan and I know you are not, they did bring to the MA's public an effective ground system for the arena. I say they made enough changes to Judo to call it there own just like any of the founding fathers of Kenpo. Sorry if you are so anti-grappling that you get blinded to the fact that Ed Parker did the exact same thing the Gracies did only 30 years early and with "American Kenpo"

2. A description of the "traditional" EPAK. You take the word "traditional" out of context. Many and yes Many do strictly adhere to the Vol. 5 outline of what should be taught in order for it to be EPAK as it should. Then people such as yourself who are off the radar and teach a different version of American Kenpo. My mistake was not using the word "Many" or "Some" or "Others". I will now make sure I am politicaly correct in what I type and make sure I have my lawyer check for my mistakes or words that will protect everyone. Yes Doc I am sure I would have a hard time underdstanding how you teach Kenpo with the curriculum you teach. I am sure the theories and concepts you teach are way over my head as well as the lingo.

3. You proved my point about the JKD crowd. It is a training concept, yet nearly everyone I see in the Mags, in the phone book, on video, at the seminars says "Bruce Lee taught it like this." Well thats wrong, 90% of the people teaching JKD never met Bruce LEE they learned it from others, who learned it from others, who trained with Bruce Lee.

4. My last statment was not a dig, but something even a child knows. If you believe you can and/or cant do something well you wll believe that.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

GRACIE (ANY OF THEM) - NO! What he (they) do they do very well, however it is not innovative, just good in THEIR venue which is sport competition. They don't do anything new, they just do it well. Apples and hand grenades to the other gentlemen.

Yes and no. The Gracie's invented no new techniques. They did change the rules and training methods they took from Judo, and they did allow for the incorporation of striking and no-gi grappling into their system.

 

[Doc]

Yes and no. The Gracie's invented no new techniques. They did change the rules and training methods they took from Judo, and they did allow for the incorporation of striking and no-gi grappling into their system.

Yeah and a couple of years ago they changed the helmets in the NFL, and now they re-emphasize the 5 yard "chuck" rule. Neither has anything to do with a fight on the street.

 

[Doc]

Ok Doc

1. Addressing the Gracies. I am no fan and I know you are not, they did bring to the MA's public an effective ground system for the arena. I say they made enough changes to Judo to call it there own just like any of the founding fathers of Kenpo.

Well sir here I disagree, unless you're willing to give credit to the people who invented the compact laser disc or the vinyl record as well. A system of fighting and a new wrinkle in a sport are not the same thing. One is infinitely more complex and demanding where your life may be on the line, and they other is a controlled environment with severely limited techniques allowed, and an on board monitor to enforce the restrictions under specified time limitations. Frankly to compare What Ed Parker did to what the Gracies did is rather insulting art wise at the least.

Sorry if you are so anti-grappling that you get blinded to the fact that Ed Parker did the exact same thing the Gracies did only 30 years early and with "American Kenpo"

Sir, I am not anti-grappling. In fact one of my good friends is Gene LaBell, and we did a DVD together. It just so happens I don't equate a sporting contest in a controlled environment to the complexity of a street fight. Nor am I "blinded" to any facet of Ed Parker's work. There simply is no comparison unless you wish to do so only as an analogy

2. A description of the "traditional" EPAK. You take the word "traditional" out of context.

No sir, you used the word out of context and applied it liberally to a large segment of people of which many you are not familiar with.

Many and yes Many do strictly adhere to the Vol. 5 outline of what should be taught in order for it to be EPAK as it should. Then people such as yourself who are off the radar and teach a different version of American Kenpo.

Well sir this may come as a surprise to you, but the infinite Insight series volume one was published in 1981, and has my name in it so I am quite familiar with the material. the information in those series of books by Mr. Parker's own description, was an accumulation of material he compiled over a ten year period.

This sir does not come even close to the bulk of the Kenpo knowledge Ed Parker Sr. Possessed, and is only a fraction of the Kenpo that Ed Parker himself utilized. There was Kenpo before that diversion into commercialism existed, and there are significant numbers of individuals who continue along the lines of what they were taught before that material came into being.

To suggest that I am "off the radar" because my personal knowledge and experience apparently pre-dates yours and the Infinite Insight Books, is a rather myopic perspective of the art in general, and speaks significantly of your lack of knowledge. In the circle of martial artists I associate, you would be considered a'off the radar" for such an elementary and limited view of a rich history of development.

My mistake was not using the word "Many" or "Some" or "Others".

No sir, your mistake was simply not being specific and paintng a group of which you do not have full knowledge with a broad brush.

I will now make sure I am politicaly correct in what I type and make sure I have my lawyer check for my mistakes or words that will protect everyone.

Sir, it has nothing to do with political correctness, and your sarcasm is duly noted. This is a medium that requires specificity if we are to communicate effectively. There are no vocal inflections or intonations, in conjunction with eye contact and body language available for interpretation. All there is to go on is what you type, period. if you don't want to be misunderstood, type what you mean and be specific.

Yes Doc I am sure I would have a hard time underdstanding how you teach Kenpo with the curriculum you teach. I am sure the theories and concepts you teach are way over my head as well as the lingo.

Although I don't know you sir, I must disagree again. Clearly there may be things you have not been exposed to that I teach, however I would not characterize them as "over your head." We are all ignorant in some areas simply because none of us are all knowing. Given the opportunity, I'm sure you wouild have no problem understanding the "concepts" or the "lingo" terminology.

3. You proved my point about the JKD crowd. It is a training concept, yet nearly everyone I see in the Mags, in the phone book, on video, at the seminars says "Bruce Lee taught it like this." Well thats wrong, 90% of the people teaching JKD never met Bruce LEE they learned it from others, who learned it from others, who trained with Bruce Lee.

On this we do not disagree. Commercial JKD is a cousin to commercial kenpo.

4. My last statment was not a dig, but something even a child knows. If you believe you can and/or cant do something well you wll believe that.

Accepting the fact that you cannot learn everything there is to learn about a particular subject does not keep you from moving beyond your teacher. It is simply an acknowledgement of the vastness of the information. Doing so is not "giving up" nor limiting yourself. Perhaps its only a matter of choosing what part of the information you wish to tackle. And I don't think any "child" knows that. That sounds like an overly simplistic inappropriate assertion of a complex concept best left to individual interpretation.

But Mr. OBriant can clarify what he means himself, if he desires.

 

[rmcrobertson]

First off, it's inaccurate to say that Mr. Parker simply adapted, "Old Pine Tree," kenpo--a) it remains very unclear exactly what Mitose did or did not know, and even more unclear where he got whatever he knew from; b) if one looks at Mitose's book, the similarities are far outweighed by the differences and above all by the systematic nature of Parker's kenpo.

Second off, it looks precisely correct to say that what the Gracie family did (and let's not forget that they were shamelessly, openly being commercial about it, too, good for them) in no way represents some new system in judo/jiu-jitsu/wrestling; as mentioned, pick up any of Gene Le Bell's old books, and there the stuff is.

Third off--as there's been occasion to say recently in other contexts, not every single person who branches off is a genius, or even a really good martial artist. Most off the people mentioned are wonderful martial artists--but (and Bruce Lee is the perfect example) they are NOT genuine innovators. It's precisely correct to say that what Mr. Lee offered was a training method, a theoretical approach that helped a lot, against a background of a stultified martial arts world. But if you go back in history--look for example at discussion of, say, fencing and sword from the 17th century both in Europe and in Asia--you will see PRECISELY the same argument between the development of organized system and, "the system of no system."

Fourth--while I suspect that Mr. Parker was a lot more cerebral and intellectual than he's generally given credit for, he wasn't a god. What he was was the equivalent of a real innovator in the arts....and to be that, you have to be in the right place at the right time, as well as somebody who's a wonderful martial artist. He was; we ain't.

What he left, what matters, is the teaching system. It's as beautiful and complex as any kata, and as rewarding to study. Our problem is that--like the kata themselves--we have lots of folks who cheerfully rip out this piece of wiring or that circuit board because they don't understand it, then get on Internet forums and kvetch that kenpo lacks this or that, then next year announce that they've founded their own system.

Can one learn without the systematic approach that kenpo offers? Sure. It's traditionally what people did, anyway...in fact, you often get the impression that the refusal to systematize was part of maintaining the mystique of the arts as much as anything else. Of course good/great teachers, and talented/motivated students, can find their own ways.

Our problem is that there are only so many of these folks. Our other problem--and what leads to the phoniness--is that an advanced, capitalist culture encourages people to do exactly what too many martial artists are doing now: dump the history and the long, slow hard work, strip the complex and subtle away, and sell sell sell what's left.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Second off, it looks precisely correct to say that what the Gracie family did (and let's not forget that they were shamelessly, openly being commercial about it, too, good for them) in no way represents some new system in judo/jiu-jitsu/wrestling; as mentioned, pick up any of Gene Le Bell's old books, and there the stuff is.

Fourth--while I suspect that Mr. Parker was a lot more cerebral and intellectual than he's generally given credit for, he wasn't a god. What he was was the equivalent of a real innovator in the arts....and to be that, you have to be in the right place at the right time, as well as somebody who's a wonderful martial artist. He was; we ain't.

What he left, what matters, is the teaching system. It's as beautiful and complex as any kata, and as rewarding to study. Our problem is that--like the kata themselves--we have lots of folks who cheerfully rip out this piece of wiring or that circuit board because they don't understand it, then get on Internet forums and kvetch that kenpo lacks this or that, then next year announce that they've founded their own system.

So what your saying is that anyone who claims that Kenpo is "incomplete" or has missed an innovation does so from an incomplete understanding of Kenpo.

And, since you would never personally make the same error as someone who criticizes Kenpo, you are also saying that you have a complete understanding of BJJ, it's methods and techniques. Furthermore you have done a detailed comparison to traditional Jiu-Jitsu and Judo of which you also have a complete understanding and have concluded that there is nothing at all new in BJJ methodology. Right?

By extrapolation, your analysis could also be applied to the art of Kajukenbo. Since Kajukenbo takes techniques and methods from other pre-existing styles, there is nothing new there either. Right?

 

[James Kovacich]

RC, in general that was a decent post but I see where Old F is coming from too. He trains both and knows exactly what he's trying to say.

True theres no new techniques but there is no one system that has all of the techniques. So to say that Geen Labell does this and so and so does that does don't mean that the new system is not valid.

I clearly do not teach what my Sifu teaches. I start off which Sifu's material but I take in a totally differant direction.

So if I'm not teaching a new system and I'm not teaching my Sifu's system then what am I doing?

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Yeah and a couple of years ago they changed the helmets in the NFL, and now they re-emphasize the 5 yard "chuck" rule. Neither has anything to do with a fight on the street.

OK, Doc I will defer to your wisdom and experience. Grappling and striking have nothing to do with a fight on the street. I stand corrected. :asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

Not what one wrote and not what he wrote, not at all.

The question both of you guys should be asking yourself is exactly, "then what am I doing?" So should we (see, "WE," means you and me both) all.

Because nobody said nothin' about your doing something invalid. Nobody argued, or so much as hinted, that "grappling and striking," meant nothing, "in the street," that incredibly-overused and hackneyed coverup phrase for all our (listen up--wrote, "OUR") mistakes and blind spots. Nobody said nothing about kenpo's being perfect. Those are your fantasies, not what was written at all.

One wrote about a) the fallacy of believing Mitose to be the One True Founder of kenpo; b) the difference between, say, Bruce Lee and Ed Parker; c) the connection of some of these errors to fraud and to capitalism.

And oh yes...one doesn't know enought about Gene Le Bell's brilliant judo to say something intelligent about his overall contributions. One suspects that they're extensive--just too much like real martial arts for folks to deal with.

 

[James Kovacich]

And oh yes...one doesn't know enought about Gene Le Bell's brilliant judo to say something intelligent about his overall contributions. One suspects that they're extensive--just too much like real martial arts for folks to deal with.

I quoted Gene becaue he is the man but although he possesses greatness his system is not the "end all" of all systems. No system can be.

I honestly wanted some input on exactly what is that one is doing when they no longer teach what their instructor teaches?

I'll be the fiirst to say that a system to me has to be proven and that comes over time. But what is it now?

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

And oh yes...one doesn't know enought about Gene Le Bell's brilliant judo to say something intelligent about his overall contributions. One suspects that they're extensive--just too much like real martial arts for folks to deal with.

You at last agree that one doesn't have to know everything about an art to say something intelligent it's overall contributions! Thank you Mr. McRobertson. artyon:

 

[rmcrobertson]

One realizes that there's no polite way to say this, but, as politely as possible--you guys have no idea what I'm talking about, do you?

 

[Doc]

OK, Doc I will defer to your wisdom and experience. Grappling and striking have nothing to do with a fight on the street. I stand corrected. :asian:

I'm sorry but I never said that in that context. Please don't put words in my mouth.

 

[Karazenpo]

You know guys, I probably shouldn't be posting right now. Yes, I am human, had a night off, relaxed and had a few 'pops' at home while watching t.v. Will you please scrap all the fancy talk, the intellectual b.s. and all these techniques from 'whirling tornados' to 'snapping the carrot'. One can definitely get a handle for those who have rolled around on the sidewalk with someone and those whose only experience is pairing off in the dojo. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with those who have never experienced a real, all out fight with someone but please, if you haven't, stop preaching to those who have. It's like some West Point idiot who never left the states lecturing a combat veteran in Iraq or Afganastan. Before someone posts back and insults me, please think of what I'm saying. I'm sure there are many street-wise martial artists reading this right now and nodding their heads in agreement. Scrap the theories and deal with the realities. Too many martial artists get into their own little world in their dojos and make assumptions on what works on the street and what doesn't, who's a good martial artist and who isn't, there system is the best, yet, they have never, ever put it to the test. Have your opinions, I don't have a problem with that, but leave your assumptions, arrogance and know-it-all attitude at the doorstep. If you've been there and done that, great! tell us about it, we'll listen, otherwise, "Stifle yourself Edith!", lol, okay, I finally got that off my chest, yeah, I know, it took a few 'pops' but I did it, now crucify me for it!, lol.