Fantasy Martial Arts

[Steve]

What I was referring to was more of this sort. "To achieve rank X you must have been practicing under our association for a period of no less than four years and pass test Y."

That kind of system I think can have two effects. First it discourages the Talented students that put in a lot of work. Second it encourages, imo, those who do just enough to get by, so long as the pay X years worth of tuition. Those types of people being in positions to teach kinda irk me. Maybe I am just projecting a pet peeve.

Just my opinion but if the standards are well considered and the test sound then the folks who do just enough to get by are just fine. The fault in any system isn't the students. That's blaming the victim.

 

[SOD-WC]

This. Definitely. While there are some techniques I wouldn't practice on a fully-resisting person (I don't want to break hands, which I've seen happen), I also don't count those techniques among my "pocket techniques". And some of the techniques I practice, I see as movement and control training, rather than actual usable techniques (similar to shrimping across a floor - the shrimping movement is usable, but you'd never use it as a means of conveyance). What you depend upon should be the stuff you can pull off against someone who's not expecting it and is trying to win.

I have a student who often apologizes for giving me surprise resistance when he wants to see if I can control him. I can't seem to convince him that's okay.

shrimping across the floor, what movement does that train? i know doing the worm allows u to relax the body.

 

[Steve]

shrimping across the floor, what movement does that train? i know doing the worm allows u to relax the body.

It teaches you how to move your hips to create room to improve your position while in the ground. Think of it as the first step to either regaining guard or returning to your feet.

The shrimping movement is foundational and very important.

Watch these heckin cute 5 year olds demonstrate how it looks. Notice that every time he performs the motion, his hips clear his partner's legs. And in real life, like in this drill, opponents rarely let you escape, so you often need to shrimp several times in order to successfully create enough space to improve your position.

 

[Juany118]

Just my opinion but if the standards are well considered and the test sound then the folks who do just enough to get by are just fine. The fault in any system isn't the students. That's blaming the victim.

As a student yes. But many schools treat black belts not simply as students but also as defacto assistant instructors per Federation guidelines. Someone can pass a test as a student and not be a suitable teacher.

 

[Steve]

As a student yes. But many schools treat black belts not simply as students but also as defacto assistant instructors per Federation guidelines. Someone can pass a test as a student and not be a suitable teacher.

If the system is sound, and the expectation is that a black belt will be a competent instructor, then they won't be promoted until they meet that standard. If they don't, that's on the system, not on the person who was promoted before they were ready.

 

[Juany118]

If the system is sound, and the expectation is that a black belt will be a competent instructor, then they won't be promoted until they meet that standard. If they don't, that's on the system, not on the person who was promoted before they were ready.

And that was the point in the article. That some systems and the hierarchy that it produces, is the problem.

 

[geezer]

As a student yes. But many schools treat black belts not simply as students but also as defacto assistant instructors per Federation guidelines. Someone can pass a test as a student and not be a suitable teacher.

You are talking a quality issue. It's not about whether students should assist the instructor, but which students should be assisting.

In organization I belong to, typically the si-hing spend a fair portion of each class drilling with their si-dai. WC/VT is taught hands on, and to learn it well you need to cross bridges with your betters.

In my own group we have two students at "Primary-Level" (the equivalent of 1st degree black belt, or about 6 years experience) and they routinely act as assistant instructors. And on the rare occasions I have to be absent, they run class for me. Both are adults, have been through training and curriculum workshops, and do a great job. Since the classes are very small, I still get around to everybody so I don't see the problem.

 

[Juany118]

You are talking a quality issue. It's not about whether students should assist the instructor, but which students should be assisting.

In organization I belong to, typically the si-hing spend a fair portion of each class drilling with their si-dai. WC/VT is taught hands on, and to learn it well you need to cross bridges with your betters.

In my own group we have two students at "Primary-Level" (the equivalent of 1st degree black belt, or about 6 years experience) and they routinely act as assistant instructors. And on the rare occasions I have to be absent, they run class for me. Both are adults, have been through training and curriculum workshops, and do a great job. Since the classes are very small, I still get around to everybody so I don't see the problem.

Yes indeed. My School is similar I believe. We have one assistant instructor who is "only" level 7, but he has been promoted to assistant instructor while two "level 9" students are simply students. My Sifu is very much not only about your rank but how good you are at passing on what you know to others. We also do the mixing you note for drilling, sihing/sije with sidai/simui, but I am more referring to those who will be observing others and step in and make a correction on one or both.

What I am speaking too is anecdotal from my brother-in-law. He is pretty good at TKD to the point if the Sa bum can't make it he is in charge and when the Sa bum is there he supervises the "senior students" and my bro the juniors. However he complains about the fact that 1. he has awesome students that can't be promoted because they don't have the "time" and others who aren't as good who get the opportunity to test simply because of the time.

 

[Steve]

And that was the point in the article. That some systems and the hierarchy that it produces, is the problem.

Agreed. And if the results aren't directly connected to the expectations, there is a flaw in the system. but it's not specific to the heirarchy. The heirarchy is one example. If the system expects black belts to be able to juggle five knives, but doesn't train them to be able to juggle at all, the system is flawed. Not the fault of the students.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What I was referring to was more of this sort. "To achieve rank X you must have been practicing under our association for a period of no less than four years and pass test Y."

That kind of system I think can have two effects. First it discourages the Talented students that put in a lot of work. Second it encourages, imo, those who do just enough to get by, so long as the pay X years worth of tuition. Those types of people being in positions to teach kinda irk me. Maybe I am just projecting a pet peeve.

I agree (though I don't see that as having much to do with hierarchy). I do like the idea of time-based guidelines. Mostly, they help instructors avoid promoting people too quickly. But they should be just that: guidelines. My guidelines include a minimum of 6 months to get to yellow (first ranked belt) and another year to get to orange (second). Most students won't make it in those timeframes, which is the point. If I have a student who appears to be ready quicker than that, I need to step back and ask myself if they are actually ready, or if I'm just excited because they're memorizing techniques faster than normal. If the answer is that they are actually ready, I'll test them and promote them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Just my opinion but if the standards are well considered and the test sound then the folks who do just enough to get by are just fine. The fault in any system isn't the students. That's blaming the victim.

I missed that in Juany's post. Yes, if the requirements are properly set, "just enough" is, in fact, enough. If it's not, the requirements want changing. Now, I'm not excited about someone teaching who has only done what they "had to" - I'd hope that the enthusiastic few become the teachers, but that won't always be the case. That's why I'm in favor of an actual instructor development program. Just being good at the "doing" doesn't always make for a good teacher.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

shrimping across the floor, what movement does that train? i know doing the worm allows u to relax the body.

It trains the shrimping motion, which is part of some ground escapes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It teaches you how to move your hips to create room to improve your position while in the ground. Think of it as the first step to either regaining guard or returning to your feet.

The shrimping movement is foundational and very important.

Watch these heckin cute 5 year olds demonstrate how it looks. Notice that every time he performs the motion, his hips clear his partner's legs. And in real life, like in this drill, opponents rarely let you escape, so you often need to shrimp several times in order to successfully create enough space to improve your position.

I like that drill - a very simple way to partner folks up and make sure the hips are actually moving. That's going in my list of things my students get to hate me for.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And that was the point in the article. That some systems and the hierarchy that it produces, is the problem.

I don't think the hierarchy they were talking about was that promotion to BB. I think they're talking about all the ranks above that, and the political crap that sometimes goes on over and within those ranks.

 

[Buka]

Some people just aren't good teachers, despite how much knowledge, technical proficiency, years studied, or winning fighting experience they have.

 

[KPM]

If you didn't like Rackemann's last article, you'll probably hate his follow on article. But I think its pretty good!

Why doesn't Wing Chun work? - Rackemann Wing Chun

 

[CB Jones]

If you didn't like Rackemann's last article, you'll probably hate his follow on article. But I think its pretty good!

Why doesn't Wing Chun work? - Rackemann Wing Chun

You would be correct.

That article is just as bad.

 

[Juany118]

If the system is sound, and the expectation is that a black belt will be a competent instructor, then they won't be promoted until they meet that standard. If they don't, that's on the system, not on the person who was promoted before they were ready.

for the most part, 0ast first level (dan) black yes, but many of the schools/federations I know of either directly, or via others, First level is about the student. It's kata, drills, sparring etc. After that then you get into having to not only pass physical tests, some even require papers to be written, for you to show "teaching talent." etc.

Again I am not saying its on the person promoted, there are a lot of messed up systems/federations out there though.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you didn't like Rackemann's last article, you'll probably hate his follow on article. But I think its pretty good!

Why doesn't Wing Chun work? - Rackemann Wing Chun

His arrogance isn't improved, though he makes some better points. He demonstrates his arrogance, though, when he discusses BJJ as being so very different from the "old school Japanese jujitsu" - ignoring the fact that the jujitsu it derived from (Judo was often called jujitsu at the time) has similar training methods.

The concept of "aliveness" is a good differentiator. It's not everything (a lot of drills depend on limiting this factor, in every art I'm personally aware of), but it's an important factor in training. I don't know a good substitute for having at least some of this in your training. His point about resistance sounds like some I've heard before, which tend to focus on someone teaching a technique/response (which will pretty much never have resistance - you need to be able to show people the technique in question, rather than whatever is appropriate for the resistance given). The problem isn't a cooperative partner (we all use those to varying extents) - it's the lack of ever moving to a resisting one.

 

[Steve]

for the most part, 0ast first level (dan) black yes, but many of the schools/federations I know of either directly, or via others, First level is about the student. It's kata, drills, sparring etc. After that then you get into having to not only pass physical tests, some even require papers to be written, for you to show "teaching talent." etc.

Again I am not saying its on the person promoted, there are a lot of messed up systems/federations out there though.

I don't think we're disagreeing on much, if anything. Just trying to ensure my point was clear to avoid any misunderstanding.