Turning on Heels?

Discussion in 'Wing Chun' started by Michael89, Jul 25, 2017.

  1. Michael89

    Michael89 Orange Belt

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    So I'm just starting out. I'm not really that good at pivoting on the heels at same time when I punch. Is there any advice to offer to improving on turning heels? Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
  2. Headhunter

    Headhunter Senior Master

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    Practice practice and practice the only way to improve anything
     
  3. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    I'm not sure what you mean, are we talking about pivoting on the heel as opposed to pivoting on the ball of the foot?
     
  4. Michael89

    Michael89 Orange Belt

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    pivoting on the heels. looks like I need to do a lot of stretching too
     
  5. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    If you change from "horse stance" into "bow arrow stance", you will need to pivot your

    - front foot on the heel, and
    - back foot on the toes.

    This way both of your feet will be parallel and not on the same line.

    Also a pivot back foot on the

    - heel is committed,
    - toes is not committed (ready to spring).


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
  6. LFJ

    LFJ Senior Master

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    You're posting on the wrong forum section again.
     
  7. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    Kung-Fu Wang's post references generic kung-fu will not be very helpful if you practice Wing Chun, and more specifically a WC branch that advocates doing "stance turning" by pivoting both feet simultaneously with your weight on your heels. I once trained in such a branch of Yip Man Wing Chun and then switched to another branch, also coming from Yip Man, that favored turning one foot at a time with the weight on the center of the foot.

    Considering the different approaches different lineages use, the best thing you can do as a beginner is keep practicing and get pointers from your sifu.
     
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  8. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    As geezer has already suggested it is best to get with your sifu as to the specifics of any footwork, turning, pivoting. In my experience with wing chun the different lineages and even within the same lineages there are differences. Not that one is wrong or right but different.
    My first sifu had me pivot on my heels, the sifu I have been under for the past 20 plus years is more on the center of the foot turning one at a time however, depending on the situation has us pivot on the heels and at times more on the ball of the foot. Once the student is at an advance level he impresses to simply do whatever comes natural or just use whatever you need. Other organizations are a bit more on doing only one of the variations.
    Do and practice whatever you sifu instructs.
     
  9. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    It depends on the system. In Jow Ga we pivot on both heels. Because of how we strike, pivoting on the heel is better and prevents damage to the knee. Not all pivots are the same when it comes to structure.
     
  10. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I don't know. Mabye?



    I mean the demo seems to work.
     
  11. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    nice video. I couldn't listen to anything he was saying (wife listening to the news). I could see that he had more connection to power with one method over the other. I like how he showed punching in front and then punching behind. I always punch with heels down and I pivot on my heels so I never thought about trying to do the same thing when the rear foot pivots on the ball of the foot. Can't wait to hear it with the sound on.
     
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  12. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

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    Yeah. My advice? Don't turn on the heels! Turning on the K1 point near the balls of the feet is more bio-mechanically efficient. ;) I've written about this in the past. A search might find it.
     
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  13. Eric_H

    Eric_H Black Belt

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    Without getting in to the efficacy of the body mechanic (which is one I trained a bunch and disagree with now) the best way to build it is to train slowly, and calmly in high repetition. Do it 1000+ times a day, only as fast as you can stay coordinated. Do not sacrifice form for speed, there will be time to build speed later.
     
  14. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    Interesting thing (i.e. "BS") brought up in that video -- supposedly, if you turn on the balls of your feet you move your body away from the target and lose power. Well that's only true if you shift your centerline to the side when you turn. You can just as easily turn on the balls of your feet and press forward into the target. Or turn on your heels and shift your centerline away from your target. Or turn on the center of your feet and shift centerline ....or not, depending on what you are trying to do.

    I believe you covered this back in one of your old threads.
     
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  15. LFJ

    LFJ Senior Master

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    @Michael89

    And here is a detailed post why pushing from the forefoot to issue force is less desirable than the heel.

    Also lots of information on proper pelvic tilt that accompanies it.
     
  16. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Agree! The reason is simple.

    When you have

    - toes up and heel down, your opponent's foot can catch on your ankle. A foot sweep can take you down.
    - toes down and heel up, your opponent's foot may slide under your foot. It's easy for you to escape out of that foot sweep.

    When you walk on the frozen lake surface, you want to use "toes down first and heel down later" (non-committed) kind of footwork.

    This is just general MA principle. It has nothing to do with "style".
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
  17. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    This is true and I will call this kind of footwork as "non-committed" footwork. Since your heel is up, you are ready to "spring" (not when you pivot, but after you have pivoted).

    As you have stated, "It depends on what you are trying to do."

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
  18. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    good video. I finally got a chance to hear it. I like to hear from people like him who dig deeper into what happens to the body when pivoting. He didn't say it was wrong or right, but simply explain what was going on. Not to pick on Wing Chun but those guys (in general) should explain it in similar ways when debating about what type of pivot to do. A lot of time it just turns into a purity match with no discussion of what happens when there's a pivot. This also is good for people who pivot like boxers, but not for the purpose of saying which is right or which is wrong, but to point out why someone would prefer to pivot on the heel.

    Before I get bashed (by others) I understand that the heel pivot isn't the preferred method of many systems. Mike Tyson used both depending on the type of punch he was using. Muay thai probably does it less simply for the fact that they always have that leg ready to kick or knee.

    Thanks for posting.
     
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  19. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I like this. It's always solid advice.
     
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  20. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I caught that too. The only difference with this is that to do so sacrifices your root. For the most part people are going to get away with it. But people who pay attention to how their opponent stands and how they root will take advantage of the person when they turn on the balls their feet and press into the target.

    From a practical perspective with the knowledge level of most fighters today I don't think it's going to be a big deal, unless you come across a fighter who would be equally as happy to take your root as they would your head.123
     

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