Fantasy Martial Arts

[Gerry Seymour]

While I disagree about forms and kata being totally useless(they do physiologically condition your body and mind to move in a certain way quickly and comfortably), the rest of his article is about spot on. I think this sort of thinking will soon become the norm. The con game that exists within TMA is more and more being put under the microscope, and as more and more of it evaporates under scrutiny, more and more potential 'customers' will be making informed decisions in what they train rather than believing in myths they have heard or seen in movies and beginning their training based on that.

The problem is that he extends his argument to things that are irrelevant to the effectiveness of an art (hierarchy, for instance) and uses them to designate any art having that feature as ineffective. That comment can be applied to most of the points he makes. Put all of those things together, and you likely have a problem, but they do not individually (nor necessarily severally) indicate a "fantasy art". Nor does changing most of those things necessarily fix an art that isn't working.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, since its an article on his own blog, its really not much of a marketing tool for one!

Many blogs are used for marketing purposes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah that was missed i think. I have conversed with people who think kata was fighting. And their lack of fighting ability was due to their lack of understanding the kata.

And that is just dumb.

But if you are doing kata as a movement training exercise then it works fine.

A drill is not fighting.

It is something we have to explain a fair bit when we go from drills to resisted. And for some reason the technique they learned ten minutes ago doesn't just work. Of course for us. (And I have stressed this as a big deal sepparating fantasy from reality) If it is resisted. It should not work untill it does work. Sorry if you dont get a double leg takedown for months. Sometimes that is how long it takes.

That is where styles like krav move into full retard in their training. They take a drill. And then move that drill into full contact. Whithout bothering about the other guy fighting back part.

This. Definitely. While there are some techniques I wouldn't practice on a fully-resisting person (I don't want to break hands, which I've seen happen), I also don't count those techniques among my "pocket techniques". And some of the techniques I practice, I see as movement and control training, rather than actual usable techniques (similar to shrimping across a floor - the shrimping movement is usable, but you'd never use it as a means of conveyance). What you depend upon should be the stuff you can pull off against someone who's not expecting it and is trying to win.

I have a student who often apologizes for giving me surprise resistance when he wants to see if I can control him. I can't seem to convince him that's okay.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've owned cats for about 33 years. So my cat owning opinions are more valid than yours.

I have 35 years of cat experience, though I stepped away from cats for a few years. So, am I more experienced, or did I start over as a beginner 10 years ago?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah but how many street fights has owning a cat enabled you to avoid?

Nearly all of them. In fact, now that I think about it, I've never had an altercation as a teen or adult while I owned a cat. All of mine were during the period I didn't own a cat.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I read the whole article but did so in a silly Indian accent.

How very Monty Python of you.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

4. Complicated terminology and tactics. He is talking as much about involved technique combinations as anything. I've pointed this out in the past as well. Some teachers have this involved "Lat Sau" program in teaching Chi Sau that is just completely unrealistic. If you are teaching combinations of movements that go beyond 3 counts, then it is very likely that what you are teaching is not going to work in a real situation. Especially against a non-Wing Chun person! Thinking that since you are such a wiz at completing all of these complicated Lat Sau progressions that you must be a bad MF (martial fan) fighter means you are likely practicing "Fantasy Fu"!

I'm not sure that follows, KPM. The point of combinations isn't always to replicate the full combination in a fight, but to train the transitions between techniques. Those transitions (pairs of techniques) are what will (possibly) show up in a fight. A 2-step combination may show up in its entirety. 6 different 2-step combinations may each show up in their entirety. If you string them together (7 techniques, 6 transitions), it's unlikely the whole will show up in its entirety, but the individual pairs remain as likely as they were before they were strung together.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

8. The awesome Sifu. This is certainly a problem. We've all seen it....the instructor that wants to create this aura of the superior fighter about himself and won't let anyone seem to challenge or disrepect him. Ego is can be a bad thing and can even leave to abuse at times.

This one definitely is a problem, and seems to be more likely in TMA. I try really hard to make sure my students know I should fail if they get good enough, or just get lucky. I've been hit in demonstration by low-ranking students because I wasn't paying enough attention to the technique (too busy explaining it to the students). My students have gotten used to the fact that it's my fault, not theirs. I'm not sure why some instructors feel students owe them the courtesy of not being better than them, even for a moment, even by luck.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

10. Origin stories. Yeah, this one seems irrelevant. Every fighting art has a history, whether actual or made up. What's the point?

I'm glad this one is irrelevant. We don't have much of an origin in NGA - we lost much of the oral history when it came to the US and later died out in Japan.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You got it. I waited 43 years to have a cat. And now I have two. One of them is even pretty cool.

I have one very cool cat (24 lbs, apparently half dog) and one my wife wouldn't let me name "Psycho".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My wife told me that all I do is talk kung fu here, so I told her that either you guys will here it (my kung fu talk) or she will have to hear it. This place should be advertised as the place to send your husband / wife when you get tired of him / her talking martial arts. "We take the beating so you don't have to" lol

Agreed. My wife is one of my students, and still gets tired of how much I talk about MA.

 

[CB Jones]

Good article here!

How to spot a Fantasy Martial Art - Rackemann Wing Chun

Didn't care for the article.

First, anytime someone has to disparage someone to elevate themselves....usually a sign that they are peddling some type of B.S.

Second, absolutely hate when someone makes broad assumptions without facts and experience.

Third, like the saying goes....never call a guy a bum (or a style a fantasy) unless you are prepared to get in the ring and prove him to be one. And I doubt that guy is willing to take on all comers.....see the first point.

 

[Juany118]

The problem is that he extends his argument to things that are irrelevant to the effectiveness of an art (hierarchy, for instance) and uses them to designate any art having that feature as ineffective. That comment can be applied to most of the points he makes. Put all of those things together, and you likely have a problem, but they do not individually (nor necessarily severally) indicate a "fantasy art". Nor does changing most of those things necessarily fix an art that isn't working.

Devil's advocate... Could you not argue the heirarchy hurts in the following manner? In most schools the black belts help teach. If a large portion of their advancement is based on time and not actual skill/talent, then aren't the assistant instructors "hurting" the other students and thus the effectiveness of the art?

 

[Juany118]

I've owned cats for about 33 years. So my cat owning opinions are more valid than yours.

I have 6 cats atm (wife is taking them with the divorce), if we total their ages, which I think is fair because they each bring their own special kind of chaos, thats 77 years worth of cat herding.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not sure that follows, KPM. The point of combinations isn't always to replicate the full combination in a fight, but to train the transitions between techniques. Those transitions (pairs of techniques) are what will (possibly) show up in a fight. A 2-step combination may show up in its entirety. 6 different 2-step combinations may each show up in their entirety. If you string them together (7 techniques, 6 transitions), it's unlikely the whole will show up in its entirety, but the individual pairs remain as likely as they were before they were strung together.

I think overly complicated is the wrong way of expressing the idea. But I think I get what he was aiming for. Where you are trying to do things like catch punches out of thin air. Grab the arm. Lock it up. It usually takes two or three motions and just far too long in the scheme of things.

Rather than say an omapalada. Which is complicated but can be pulled off du to the situation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Devil's advocate... Could you not argue the heirarchy hurts in the following manner? In most schools the black belts help teach. If a large portion of their advancement is based on time and not actual skill/talent, then aren't the assistant instructors "hurting" the other students and thus the effectiveness of the art?

In most hierarchical associations, it's only the upper ranks that are divorced from skill testing. In the NGAA, for instance, 1st and 2nd dan ranks are tested. Above that, ranks are for honorary and hierarchical purposes, only (other than the fact that dan ranks can promote to one rank below them).

So, for the student, there's very little functional difference between the NGAA's 6 dan ranks and hierarchy, versus the 3 "ranks" (black belt student, instructor, senior instructor) I use. In both cases, all that matters is the associate instructor level (their 1st dan, my "instructor") and the chief instructor level (their 2nd dan, my "senior instructor"). Beyond that is just for organizational purposes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think overly complicated is the wrong way of expressing the idea. But I think I get what he was aiming for. Where you are trying to do things like catch punches out of thin air. Grab the arm. Lock it up. It usually takes two or three motions and just far too long in the scheme of things.

Rather than say an omapalada. Which is complicated but can be pulled off du to the situation.

Catching a punch and grabbing moving arms (rather than trapping them) are problems, but he seemed to be talking about the number of pre-planned steps. There are a lot of steps, for instance, in the sequence to go from inside a closed guard to passing to side control to an arm lock. At any point in that sequence, the opponent could interrupt it, but that doesn't make the sequence useless. Each of the transitions in that sequence, and all of the pieces needed to make those work, are useful, and practicing that sequence is an easy way to get them all in, in a short period of time.

I consider catching fists and moving arms to be a misunderstanding of the techniques. I've seen them practiced, and it's like practicing a hip throw without knowing what puts the person in position to move under, how to get that underhook in (assuming you're using one, rather than dragging them by the gi), etc. There are plenty of situations where a hip throw with an underhook is really unrealistic, and the same is true of a wrist lock from an arm drag (which requires trapping the arm, first). In most cases, where I see people missing this, it's really the idea of the arm drag they are missing.

 

[ShortBridge]

Didn't make it through. This guy has his own blind spots and is convinced that they are not there...just like the people he is criticizing.

 

[Buka]

I read the article strictly for the sake of conversation. He makes some okay points, and just as many not okay points. I agree with the Sifu cult thoughts, but don't really see that sort of thing any more, at least as opposed to thirty years ago. There's probably still a few, but I think there's a better Martial educated public these days.

I agree with the secret techniques thoughts. But to give the devil his due, that was always my favorite bs Martial thing, Secret Techniques. Never actually knew any myself, but loved hearing it from the Kool Aide crowd. I say bring it back! At least it's entertaining.

As Juany noted, Donnie Yen did used to get into fights. It was mostly a territorial thing, and a lot of the fights were against others who trained, and just plain young man nonsense. I spent a good amount of time in Chinatown back in the day, and know a few cops who were stationed there then, dealing with all that crap. His mom, Bow-sim Mark, is a great Martial Artist, by the way.

But I, myself, do Fantasy Martial Arts. American Karate. We pretty much made it up ourselves, can't get much more fantasy than that. And I DO live on an island....AND work at an Airport. So when I say "The Plane, Boss, The Plane!" You all might want to check your bags.

 

[Juany118]

In most hierarchical associations, it's only the upper ranks that are divorced from skill testing. In the NGAA, for instance, 1st and 2nd dan ranks are tested. Above that, ranks are for honorary and hierarchical purposes, only (other than the fact that dan ranks can promote to one rank below them).

So, for the student, there's very little functional difference between the NGAA's 6 dan ranks and hierarchy, versus the 3 "ranks" (black belt student, instructor, senior instructor) I use. In both cases, all that matters is the associate instructor level (their 1st dan, my "instructor") and the chief instructor level (their 2nd dan, my "senior instructor"). Beyond that is just for organizational purposes.

What I was referring to was more of this sort. "To achieve rank X you must have been practicing under our association for a period of no less than four years and pass test Y."

That kind of system I think can have two effects. First it discourages the Talented students that put in a lot of work. Second it encourages, imo, those who do just enough to get by, so long as the pay X years worth of tuition. Those types of people being in positions to teach kinda irk me. Maybe I am just projecting a pet peeve.