"Every cop should learn BJj" Do you agree?

[Hanzou]

The problem I've seen from many SD schools and places, even the Krav schools, is the lack of quality due to the lack of pressure testing. If the pressure testing is good, then your quality of students will be higher. The really good quality Krav place near me offers what they call L.A.C.E. – Ladies Awareness, Confidence & Empowerment. I'd be curious how hard they push them and how much resistance they are given.

If I were a cop, I'd be contemplating the same 3 arts I've been discussing the last few months - Judo, BJJ and Wrestling. Reality is you can't go wrong with any of those 3. BJJ is clearly more accessible. I'd say Judo/Wrestling "may" be more idea in the sense you get better stand up to avoid ground. Obviously BJJ is best for the ground.

To be a complete fighter there is no getting around having both striking and a ground game. It becomes a matter of preference and availability.

Not only that, but as @drop bear said, there's a matter of quality control. There simply isnt many bad Judo, Wrestling, and Bjj schools out there because there's too much contact and it's too easy to recognize when someone doesn't know what they're doing. I've seen some very questionable stuff out of some Krav practicioners.

One interesting thing about BJJ is that women roll with men much larger than themselves. So they're getting a pretty good idea of what it's like to grapple with a man trying to impose their will on them.

*Between Judo, Wrestling and BJJ, which would allow someone to more competent the quickest? In other words, if you taught someone 6-12 months of BJJ, Judo or Wrestling, which would provide you the most attributes the fastest? Time is money and any more time than that would be not ideal for LE.

Judo is definitely the hardest, but heaven help anyone who is on the recieving end of a Judo throw. I would say wrestling is the easiest. However in many BJJ schooIs you're going to get some spill-over of all three.

 

[JR 137]

Not only that, but as @drop bear said, there's a matter of quality control. There simply isnt many bad Judo, Wrestling, and Bjj schools out there because there's too much contact and it's too easy to recognize when someone doesn't know what they're doing. I've seen some very questionable stuff out of some Krav practicioners.

One interesting thing about BJJ is that women roll with men much larger than themselves. So they're getting a pretty good idea of what it's like to grapple with a man trying to impose their will on them.



Judo is definitely the hardest, but heaven help anyone who is on the recieving end of a Judo throw. I would say wrestling is the easiest. However in many BJJ schooIs you're going to get some spill-over of all three.

I haven’t done BJJ nor Judo, but have you wrestled? Trust me, there’s a steep learning curve. Guys wouldn’t get competitive for at least a year*. If you’ve done all three and found that, then I respect your opinion. I have no opinion because I only know wrestling.

From what I’ve heard, you can spend your first 3-6 in Judo just learning how to fall.

I don’t know the progression in BJJ.

*From my experience wrestling and coaching. They’d win a few matches their first season, but they’d be against people with equal or lesser experience. Even the “tough kids” would get destroyed by someone with a year under their belt.

 

[TMA17]

In Judo I was throwing the first 2 weeks. Not well, but able to do it. We practiced falling every class. To become extremely proficient it takes a long time and there are so many throws and takedowns to learn. I guess they all have a high learning curve. BJJ is very intricate and technical to me. Lot of different small moves. I found that to be the hardest of what i have tried. It also depends who your partner is. I haven't spent nearly enough time in either to really know for sure though.

 

[CB Jones]

With that said, I watched the video in the OP with the sound on, and its pretty hard to argue that this situation...

..couldn't have used some Bjj.

He actually didn't need BJJ.

He was in position. He just needed to maintain grip on the left wrist, step over his body and put weight on the back of the upper arm and he would have been in position to have the shoulder lock for handcuffing from the prone position.

Instead he let go of his wrist and moved around to his head while dropping to his knees.



Maybe a few hammer fists to the ear for good measure as well.

 

[CB Jones]

I was simply trying to administer a Brachial Stun from a hammer fist in an attempt to restrain him but his ear and temple got in the way a dozen times.....

 

[pdg]

Also when rolling around on the ground both me and the suspect are now the same distance away from my gun, my taser, my OC Spray.

Surely this is a good case for biometric triggers?

That way, if the suspect gets your gun all they've gained is a funny shaped knuckleduster...

 

[Buka]

I was simply trying to administer a Brachial Stun from a hammer fist in an attempt to restrain him but his ear and temple got in the way a dozen times.....

The Bastard!

 

[ballen0351]

Surely this is a good case for biometric triggers?

That way, if the suspect gets your gun all they've gained is a funny shaped knuckleduster...

I'm not willing to trust my life to some biometric trigger that may or may not work when I need it or when I'm wearing gloves because it cold or because I am about to search someone and now my fancy biometric lock on my gun won't work.
Perhaps someday in the future someone can make a reliable system but nothing I've seen available now is appropriate for law enforcement

 

[Hanzou]

I haven’t done BJJ nor Judo, but have you wrestled? Trust me, there’s a steep learning curve. Guys wouldn’t get competitive for at least a year*. If you’ve done all three and found that, then I respect your opinion. I have no opinion because I only know wrestling.

From what I’ve heard, you can spend your first 3-6 in Judo just learning how to fall.

I don’t know the progression in BJJ.

*From my experience wrestling and coaching. They’d win a few matches their first season, but they’d be against people with equal or lesser experience. Even the “tough kids” would get destroyed by someone with a year under their belt.

I've learned some wrestling from training with wrestlers, and I've found that I picked up the wrestling takedowns and pins very quickly. That could be because of my Bjj and football background. I don't know. I'll take your word that wrestling might be tougher to learn. I just know that Judo is highly technical, while Bjj is teaching you how to fight on a different plane than what you're used to, and that can throw some people for a loop. Wrestling (at least to me) seemed a lot more intuitive and natural than either.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Surely this is a good case for biometric triggers?

That way, if the suspect gets your gun all they've gained is a funny shaped knuckleduster...

Biometric triggers are way way way too unreliable to trust with my life.

 

[Hanzou]

He actually didn't need BJJ.

He was in position. He just needed to maintain grip on the left wrist, step over his body and put weight on the back of the upper arm and he would have been in position to have the shoulder lock for handcuffing from the prone position.

Instead he let go of his wrist and moved around to his head while dropping to his knees.

Maybe a few hammer fists to the ear for good measure as well.

I think that's what he was going for. He was attempting to flatten him out, but unfortunately the guy was laying on his side with his arms stretched out which made reaching for the wrist tough. From that position he could have utilized the BJJ modified mount that would have controlled the guy without the cop having to do much of anything. From the modified you got multiple submissions you can do that would have taken that guy out without socking him or shooting him.

Hammer fists? Not necessary.

 

[pdg]

I'm not willing to trust my life to some biometric trigger that may or may not work when I need it or when I'm wearing gloves because it cold or because I am about to search someone and now my fancy biometric lock on my gun won't work.
Perhaps someday in the future someone can make a reliable system but nothing I've seen available now is appropriate for law enforcement

I might be wrong, but I read into that statement that if a biometric trigger control was reliable you would use it.

That's a start if so.

Think about it - it needn't be biometric, that was just one option. Could be RFID, or NFC, or similar.

Could be restricted to one user, or "any authorised". You could restrict the operation to people who are trained in it's use, or those above a certain grade, or those in specialist units - whatever.

Yeah ok, it would be 'hackable' (because that's always brought up sometime with any tech), but it's a whole lot better than "I hope I can stop him grabbing my gun".

 

[pdg]

Biometric triggers are way way way too unreliable to trust with my life.

Right now I'd agree.

But I think there's a damn good case for development.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Think about it - it needn't be biometric, that was just one option. Could be RFID, or NFC, or similar.

No. Those are, also, not anywhere near reliable enough to trust with my life. What happens when you need to shoot with your left hand? What happens when the bracelet is damaged?
Pretty much anything that adds complexity is going to be a non-starter.

 

[JR 137]

I've learned some wrestling from training with wrestlers, and I've found that I picked up the wrestling takedowns and pins very quickly. That could be because of my Bjj and football background. I don't know. I'll take your word that wrestling might be tougher to learn. I just know that Judo is highly technical, while Bjj is teaching you how to fight on a different plane than what you're used to, and that can throw some people for a loop. Wrestling (at least to me) seemed a lot more intuitive and natural than either.

I’d attribute that to the previous experience. I’ve had a few guys come from MMA. They did quite well initially, compared to first year guys without any experience (football players included).

They all got to a point where the MMA experience didn’t carry them much further. Just like my wrestling friends who started BJJ - they were well ahead of BJJ white belts who started at the same time, but hit that preverbial wall when going up against higher blue belts and up. They had to unlearn some ingrained habits, like falling to your stomach rather than your back, and not locking their hands unless they were on their feet or had a pinning combination.

 

[pdg]

No. Those are, also, not anywhere near reliable enough to trust with my life. What happens when you need to shoot with your left hand? What happens when the bracelet is damaged?
Pretty much anything that adds complexity is going to be a non-starter.

Who said anything about a bracelet?

Also, you're basing your opinion entirely on what's available right now.

If I was only basing this on what's available right now I'd say it's a silly idea too - but next year? In 3 years?

Scenario:

You're cuffing someone, you've got their back (either on the ground or against a car or something), you're keeping your gun away from them.

Their friend casually strolls up behind you, lifts out your gun and puts it to the back of your head.

Wouldn't it be nice if the gun refused to fire because it didn't recognise them?

So they run away - wouldn't it also be nice if you could track the location of your gun and go pick it up, along with the guy who took it?

(Oh, and if yours has a mechanical failure, like a misfire or a jam, you can still use your partner's or another colleague's, because those are programmed to recognise you too.)



I dunno, I'm not "over there" - maybe that system oppresses their criminal rights or something...

 

[ballen0351]

I might be wrong, but I read into that statement that if a biometric trigger control was reliable you would use it.

That's a start if so.

I wouldn't willingly but if the PD decided to use them the officers would have a choice to use it or quit. It won't apply to me I'm done on Jan 1st.

Think about it - it needn't be biometric, that was just one option. Could be RFID, or NFC, or similar.

Could be restricted to one user, or "any authorised". You could restrict the operation to people who are trained in it's use, or those above a certain grade, or those in specialist units - whatever.

Yeah ok, it would be 'hackable' (because that's always brought up sometime with any tech), but it's a whole lot better than "I hope I can stop him grabbing my gun".

Nothing available today would work but who knows what will be on the horizon in 15 or 20 years.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Who said anything about a bracelet?

You sure as hell aren't implanting anything. Which means you'd have to wear something.

Also, you're basing your opinion entirely on what's available right now.

Well, if you want to turn this into a fantasy, ok.

Scenario:

You're cuffing someone, you've got their back (either on the ground or against a car or something), you're keeping your gun away from them.

Their friend casually strolls up behind you, lifts out your gun and puts it to the back of your head.

Scenario: You possess even marginal situational awareness, so this doesn't happen.
You're also wearing a holster with a retention device, which would also prevent this.
And since your scenario includes a partner, your partner prevents it.

Oh wait, you didn't want to keep this real. Sorry.

I'll use my telekinetic powers to keep the trigger from moving.

 

[ballen0351]

You're cuffing someone, you've got their back (either on the ground or against a car or something), you're keeping your gun away from them.

Their friend casually strolls up behind you, lifts out your gun and puts it to the back of your head.

Its generally not that simple most PDs are running triple retention holsters and the officer shouldn't be so focused on just the one bad guy they should also be aware of the "Friend" coming up behind them but I get your point. Which is why I said grappling arts like BJJ are not optimal for law enforcement. I would rather create distance as soon as the "friend" tried to get my gun. Then deal with them at a distance with other available means like a taser or OC.

Wouldn't it be nice if the gun refused to fire because it didn't recognise them?

So they run away - wouldn't it also be nice if you could track the location of your gun and go pick it up, along with the guy who took it?

(Oh, and if yours has a mechanical failure, like a misfire or a jam, you can still use your partner's or another colleague's, because those are programmed to recognise you too.)

Would it be nice sure Im just not sure how to make it reliable at this time

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I haven’t done BJJ nor Judo, but have you wrestled? Trust me, there’s a steep learning curve. Guys wouldn’t get competitive for at least a year*. If you’ve done all three and found that, then I respect your opinion. I have no opinion because I only know wrestling.

From what I’ve heard, you can spend your first 3-6 in Judo just learning how to fall.

I don’t know the progression in BJJ.

*From my experience wrestling and coaching. They’d win a few matches their first season, but they’d be against people with equal or lesser experience. Even the “tough kids” would get destroyed by someone with a year under their belt.

I don’t know wrestling, but here’s my take based on what exposure I have to BJJ and Judo.

If Judo is taught with a focus toward immediate effectiveness (rather than quickest competitiveness), a couple of throws, takedown defense, and a bit of ground work can be learned to usefulness in a few months (with other learning also occurring for longer-term development).

If the same approach is taken in BJJ, a couple of takedowns, two mount escapes, basic side control and a simple guard pass can also be trained to usefulness in a few months.

I’d give an edge to BJJ in what can be trained quickly to usefulness in that time.