"Every cop should learn BJj" Do you agree?

[TMA17]

Taking a large mentally unstable or highly intoxicated person into custody isn't easy and doesn't look pretty. They also tried very hard not to advance to a more serious use of force. They kept striking green areas with the baton (outer upper thigh) vs escalating the force applied. Probably because they knew more people were coming so there was no need to escalate to a higher force level. We deal with guys high on PCP very often. Pain compliance doesn't work on them because they don't feel it. So "submission" style joint locks have no effect. You can snap an elbow and they don't feel it. So your left with getting as many people as you can and dogpile them until you get them cuffed and hope they don't die from excited delirium or positional asphyxiation. It's not pretty especially when they are naked but its the safest method for all involved.

Very interesting I didn't know that. As I was watching the video, I was wondering why the guy didn't try to take him down and subdue him.

In a case like that though, a good submission hold would be beneficial, no?

 

[ballen0351]

In a case like that though, a good submission hold would be beneficial, no?

Depends. You cant depend on pain to keep him in the hold. I'm not a small guy I'm 6 ft 260ish at the time and I took a guy on PCP to the ground I was on his back trying to keep him proned out until more units got there. He Pushed himself up got too his feet while I was still holding onto him and started sprinting down the street with me on his back as I just held on and went for the ride. Because of the drug + Adreline dump and lack of feeling pain they can push their muscles beyond comfortable levels almost appearing superhuman strength I watched a guy chew up oyster shells in half and in the process also breaking his teeth out just before I got there he jumped out the third-floor window. When we finally got him to the hospital he broke his hip and fractured his spine. So if you could use a submission hold that wasn't relying on pain and that didn't involve the neck because choke holds or anything that resemble them is against our regulations. But again generally these guys are covered in sweat, many times naked or partially naked, so keeping a hold on them alone is hard.

 

[ballen0351]

Very interesting I didn't know that. As I was watching the video, I was wondering why the guy didn't try to take him down and subdue him.

They may have tried at the start but realized it wasn't going to work with the 3 or 4 guys there and needed more or perhaps they were too afraid. Not every cop is prepared for stuff like this. I've worked with people that shouldn't be a cop and if the SHTF they run. I literally had a cop run away and get in her car and drive off when I was dealing with a guy with an ax. I reported her after that incident and they just transferred her to a different unit. So there are cops that shouldn't be cops on the street.

 

[JR 137]

My favorite is when they are naked humping a park bench and the neighborhood residents are dumping milk all over them because for some reason they believe milk is the narcan for PCP.

I see LEOs here constantly talking about perpetrators on PCP. Is that drug really that common? I haven’t heard my generation or younger mention it more than a handful of times at best. My parents and people their age - part of the Woodstock-Vietnam war era - talked about it more than anyone else I know combined. Except the LEOs on message boards.

Is PCP some sort of underground epidemic or something? I thought it was opioids, with methamphetamines like crystal meth kinda being second. Although I don’t hear as much about crystal meth anymore. Maybe pharmacies regulating pseudoephedrine took its toll.

Or are you guys coming across a few guys on it and that stands out most? Or are you using PCP as a generic term? Sorry, I just don’t hear about angel dust very much outside of conversations like this one.

 

[JR 137]

They already have that.

Not what I had in mind at all. Picture the UFC, where it’s MMAer vs cop in the cage. Cop in full regular uniform, not what looks like SWAT type stuff. MMAer in regular clothed.

Cop tries to cuff MMAer for a win. MMAer tries to win via MMA rules. An outside official can throw in a stick, rock, etc. at will. He can also open the cage door and send in another MMAer, cop, or send in a whole mix.

That could test the skills. And better than the video you linked to that I watched for about 30 sec. More entertaining too - UFC meets WWF meets the show COPS.

Cops would ride in a police cruiser, motorcycle or horse to the ring, with the COLS show “Bad Boys” theme song playing. Perps would sneak in or ride in in a stolen car. Their entrance music could be NWA’s F The Police or similar.

I wonder if Spike TV would be interested in my pitch. Then again, are they still around?

 

[ballen0351]

I see LEOs here constantly talking about perpetrators on PCP. Is that drug really that common? I haven’t heard my generation or younger mention it more than a handful of times at best. My parents and people their age - part of the Woodstock-Vietnam war era - talked about it more than anyone else I know combined. Except the LEOs on message boards.

Is PCP some sort of underground epidemic or something? I thought it was opioids, with methamphetamines like crystal meth kinda being second. Although I don’t hear as much about crystal meth anymore. Maybe pharmacies regulating pseudoephedrine took its toll.

Or are you guys coming across a few guys on it and that stands out most? Or are you using PCP as a generic term? Sorry, I just don’t hear about angel dust very much outside of conversations like this one.

Depends on where you are it's very localized here. Like we see it all the time here atleast a few times a month. But I know 25 miles north in the neighboring county they never see it. Drugs, in general, tend to be regional for example I was a narcotics detective for many years and I have never seen crystal meth on the streets here we have mostly crack, and heroin. But I talk to cops in the midwest and they say they never see crack its all meth. Opioids are pretty much everywhere now , mainly because of how easy you can get it.

Also Around here PCP is different then the 60s and 70s "angel dust" PCP that your parent's generation would know. Here it's a liquid that you dip a cigarette into and then smokes the cigarette. They call it a dipper.

 

[CB Jones]

I see LEOs here constantly talking about perpetrators on PCP. Is that drug really that common? I haven’t heard my generation or younger mention it more than a handful of times at best. My parents and people their age - part of the Woodstock-Vietnam war era - talked about it more than anyone else I know combined. Except the LEOs on message boards.

Is PCP some sort of underground epidemic or something? I thought it was opioids, with methamphetamines like crystal meth kinda being second. Although I don’t hear as much about crystal meth anymore. Maybe pharmacies regulating pseudoephedrine took its toll.

Or are you guys coming across a few guys on it and that stands out most? Or are you using PCP as a generic term? Sorry, I just don’t hear about angel dust very much outside of conversations like this one.

It’s still out there. We don’t see it a lot but when we do it’s so crazy it stands out.

But we do see a lot of bath salts and synthetic weed that causes a lot of the same effects as PCP.

Those smoking spice are almost like zombies!from the walking dead.

And crystal meth is a huge problem in our area

 

[JR 137]

Depends on where you are it's very localized here. Like we see it all the time here atleast a few times a month. But I know 25 miles north in the neighboring county they never see it. Drugs, in general, tend to be regional for example I was a narcotics detective for many years and I have never seen crystal meth on the streets here we have mostly crack, and heroin. But I talk to cops in the midwest and they say they never see crack its all meth. Opioids are pretty much everywhere now , mainly because of how easy you can get it.

Also Around here PCP is different then the 60s and 70s "angel dust" PCP that your parent's generation would know. Here it's a liquid that you dip a cigarette into and then smokes the cigarette. They call it a dipper.

I agree it’s largely regional as to the epidemics.

My brother-in-law is a NYS Trooper. I know quite a few LEOs; Troopers and local police. None mention PCP, meth, stuff like that. Here it’s mainly heroine and opioids.

I haven’t heard anyone mention LSD since around high school (I graduated in ‘94) and early college at the latest. Is that even a thing anymore?

 

[JR 137]

It’s still out there. We don’t see it a lot but when we do it’s so crazy it stands out.

But we do see a lot of bath salts and synthetic weed that causes a lot of the same effects as PCP.

Those smoking spice are almost like zombies!from the walking dead.

And crystal meth is a huge problem in our area

If I “like” your post, would that mean that I like meth being a huge problem in your area?

 

[JR 137]

Depends on where you are it's very localized here. Like we see it all the time here atleast a few times a month. But I know 25 miles north in the neighboring county they never see it. Drugs, in general, tend to be regional for example I was a narcotics detective for many years and I have never seen crystal meth on the streets here we have mostly crack, and heroin. But I talk to cops in the midwest and they say they never see crack its all meth. Opioids are pretty much everywhere now , mainly because of how easy you can get it.

Also Around here PCP is different then the 60s and 70s "angel dust" PCP that your parent's generation would know. Here it's a liquid that you dip a cigarette into and then smokes the cigarette. They call it a dipper.

I think they used to sprinkle angel dust into cigarettes and/or joints. Both of my parents said they never did it, but saw enough people get really strung out on it.

I don’t think any drugs are like they were in their generation. Far more potent and messed with.

I’ve never been a drug guy. I remember in college one guy said “I’ve never seen you smoke or snort anything, pop any pills, stuff like that. Why?” My reply “I haven’t lost interest in alcohol yet.” That one got a round of laughs. And most people stopped offering me stuff afterwards.

 

[ballen0351]

I agree it’s largely regional as to the epidemics.

My brother-in-law is a NYS Trooper. I know quite a few LEOs; Troopers and local police. None mention PCP, meth, stuff like that. Here it’s mainly heroine and opioids.

I haven’t heard anyone mention LSD since around high school (I graduated in ‘94) and early college at the latest. Is that even a thing anymore?

We have a liberal arts college in my jurisdiction that has some LSD use but not much. I'm sure there is more then we know about but they keep it on campus and we don't go on campus unless its an emergency. I did have an informant once that said it was pretty popular on the Naval base because the drug test didn't test for it but I don't know how true that is I never looked into it.

 

[CB Jones]

I agree it’s largely regional as to the epidemics.

My brother-in-law is a NYS Trooper. I know quite a few LEOs; Troopers and local police. None mention PCP, meth, stuff like that. Here it’s mainly heroine and opioids.

I haven’t heard anyone mention LSD since around high school (I graduated in ‘94) and early college at the latest. Is that even a thing anymore?

LSD pops up every now and then in spots.

Mexican carrels have really upped the flow of heroin and meth. They have actually flooded the market with meth. For example when I came into narcotics in our area meth was 1600-1800 dollars per ounce.....now it’s 200-400 dollars per ounce.

 

[JR 137]

We have a liberal arts college in my jurisdiction that has some LSD use but not much. I'm sure there is more then we know about but they keep it on campus and we don't go on campus unless its an emergency. I did have an informant once that said it was pretty popular on the Naval base because the drug test didn't test for it but I don't know how true that is I never looked into it.

Come to think about it, a lot of the guys who did acid back then were the ones who had to take mandatory urine tests for reasons like probation.

 

[CB Jones]

We have a liberal arts college in my jurisdiction that has some LSD use but not much. I'm sure there is more then we know about but they keep it on campus and we don't go on campus unless its an emergency. I did have an informant once that said it was pretty popular on the Naval base because the drug test didn't test for it but I don't know how true that is I never looked into it.

Tends to be mostly connected to college students when we come across it as well.

 

[JR 137]

LSD pops up every now then in spots.

Mexican carrels have really upped the flow of heroin and meth. They have actually flooded the market with meth. For example when I came into narcotics in our area meth was 1600-1800 dollars per ounce.....now it’s 200-400 dollars per ounce.

Supply, demand and competition driving the market. I knew that economics class would make sense one day.

 

[Buka]

That video is exactly what we dealt with earlier in the week. Except we carry no batons, no OC and no tasers. It's either hands on use your firearm. And we had way more cops on top of him than what was shown in that vid.

The biggest problem is you're trying not to injure them, just control them. Pains in the backside those kind of guys.

Edit - out here there's a lot of meth.

 

[ballen0351]

That video is exactly what we dealt with earlier in the week. Except we carry no batons, no OC and no tasers. It's either hands on use your firearm. And we had way more cops on top of him than what was shown in that vid.

The biggest problem is you're trying not to injure them, just control them. Pains in the backside those kind of guys.

Also the more cops the harder it becomes to deal with because it never fails Ill pull left my partner will pull right another guy pulls down the 4th guy pulls up. The 5th cop runs up and grabs a leg thinking its the suspect but its actually cop #3.

 

[Buka]

Also the more cops the harder it becomes to deal with because it never fails Ill pull left my partner will pull right another guy pulls down the 4th guy pulls up. The 5th cop runs up and grabs a leg thinking its the suspect but its actually cop #3.

Ain't that the truth. The biggest problem we have is most of our guys all come from different places, different departments, different states. They all trained in different ways, haven't worked together before. Sometimes it gets kind of keystone.

I so wish I could post the vid I have of the other night. But, alas, no can.

 

[CB Jones]

Also the more cops the harder it becomes to deal with because it never fails Ill pull left my partner will pull right another guy pulls down the 4th guy pulls up. The 5th cop runs up and grabs a leg thinking its the suspect but its actually cop #3.

I work a plain clothes detail every year where we do stop and frisk on suspected gangbangers and muggers.

It’s made up of guys from different units so takes a little time to mesh.

So the 1st night we approach this group smoking weed on the corner. Soon as we badge them they break to run. I grab one and put him up against the wall when I hear J yelling “Same Team, Same Team”. I turn and look to see T with J in a Full Nelson with J yelling same team. In the chaos T had grabbed J. Lol.

J was kinda a small guy and T is much bigger so J’s feet were off the ground and kicking.

Every time we see each other we laugh about “Same Team, Same Team”

 

[drop bear]

Taking a large mentally unstable or highly intoxicated person into custody isn't easy and doesn't look pretty. They also tried very hard not to advance to a more serious use of force. They kept striking green areas with the baton (outer upper thigh) vs escalating the force applied. Probably because they knew more people were coming so there was no need to escalate to a higher force level. We deal with guys high on PCP very often. Pain compliance doesn't work on them because they don't feel it. So "submission" style joint locks have no effect. You can snap an elbow and they don't feel it. So your left with getting as many people as you can and dogpile them until you get them cuffed and hope they don't die from excited delirium or positional asphyxiation. It's not pretty especially when they are naked but its the safest method for all involved.

I remember my first fight. It went pretty much the same way.

You are saying they hit him with a bat to not escalate the situation.

So seriously let me get this straight. While they were waiting for back up. They just hit the guy every now and then.

Why not just wait?

And do you know what a pin in as supposed to a submission?