"Every cop should learn BJj" Do you agree?

[ballen0351]

Or we are missing some major pieces of the puzzle.

For me I would need a lot more convincing than your say so to believe you have essentially solved the martial arts issue that there are no short cuts to winning fights.

Well I just looked up the line of duty deaths in the US since 2010 I found 4 total incidents where a police officer was assaulted and died. 3 of the 4 happened when a suspect pushed the officer downstairs or over a railing and the officer banged his had. If you want to add in people that died from complications from a surgery that was to treat an injury from an assault then add 3 more. You can add 1 more if you want to count officers that had a heart attack after a fight. So adding all that together 8 police officers from 2010 to 2017 out of approx 1 million officers were killed from an assault over the last 7 years. Statistically, that's pretty amazing actually I thought the numbers would be much higher.

 

[lklawson]

I am not sure how saying that a system with no consistency is a defense of that system.

Especially when the argument for DT is that cops arrest criminals so it must work.

So there are a whole bunch of different systems. And they change. And they all produce the same result. Which is cops go out and arrest people.

If we have a bunch of different methods and they are producing the same result. Are those methods doing anything at all?

I would recommend a system I have seen work over a system I have not seen work. And nobody can show me it works.

And when it comes to ego or self interest then you can look elsewhere.

Mabye even at the people who can't even produce a system to critique. Who hide behind their own authority and are benefiting from teaching systems at the cost of other people's health.


Because when it comes to professional violence results matter. Being able to fight gets you home safer. And the individual persons safety is my most important concern.

2 weeks of training and then pushing someone in to any fight using any system is already gross negligence. Let alone using these untested and unknown methods. This shows a disdain for the job they expect someone to do.

It quite simply amazes me police manage to succeed when they have been set up to fail.

It is not an American issue. Police here have the same problems. It is not even just a police issue. I had the same problems.

And it is an infuriating brick wall of self interest at the cost of the individuals health and safety.

And then we have BJJ.
Done by police officers out of their own personal choice. Provides open discourse on techniques and tactics. Is actually seen working in real life situations. Provides on going training. Is driven by the needs of officers themselves. And is accountable. And they actually have a system to critique.

Results matter. Good training is important.

Yeah, whatever. It's all the same bull crap. You don't know what you're talkin about. End of story.

 

[lklawson]

Or we are missing some major pieces of the puzzle.

For me I would need a lot more convincing than your say so to believe you have essentially solved the martial arts issue that there are no short cuts to winning fights.

Yes, there is something you're missing. Experience.

 

[JR 137]

If it doesn't have evidence anywhere then it is an unsupported system.

A million cops using it is terrible evidence.

What evidence do you want? Serious question.

Now my smarta$$ question and post...

If you put DT instructors and/or DT trained officers who “buy in” into the cage vs MMAers, would that be your evidence? How about a DTer win would be getting the MMAer cuffed, and a MMAer win would be regular MMA rules win?

But we’d also have to account for the DTer being able to taze and pepper spray under local laws. But the MMAer can take those away and their gun and use them too. Gun would contain blanks. Or something like a paintball so we wouldn’t have the argument if the shooter missed, but the gun itself would have to be an exact replica of what they carry. And they’d have to be in full uniform: belt, holster, hidden guns, bulletproof vest, et al. They’d have to submit a picture of them during random routine police work (non-administrative) that was taken by someone else before they knew they were going to compete. Certifying officials would determine the authenticity and decide what they’re going to bring in during the ref’s instructions in the locker room.

The MMAer has to wear street clothing common criminals might wear, and possibly carry a weapon, as determined by the board. They could also throw a makeshift weapon into the cage at any point after the bell rings or have another guy jump in; criminal or cop.

Now that’s an event. And it would prove DT’s legitimacy and accountability.

Or we could take working veteran officers who also teach DT’s word for it.

I haven’t seen any DT trainers selling their systems to the public like, say, Krav Maga yet. Maybe I’m looking in all the wrong places. So their word holds some credibility IMO.

 

[drop bear]

What evidence do you want? Serious question?

I will do the serious question first. And it is really complicated so I will try an explain it. But bear with me.

As far as evidence first I want to look at training culture.

Bjj does training culture and community about as good as any system. So for a student to gain evidence on a system or a school or a teacher or a student. They turn up wrestle the guy and can make a decent gauge on who knows what and what systems are appropriate for what results.

This is aside to competition, and open access to youtube.

So if I wanted evidence on a school. I could go to that school and try it out. But because of the community aspect. I don't have to rely on just my opinion. Other instructors will roll and so get a community review as well.

They engage with the community that they are training to beat up.

So evidence as in open mats, competition. Any sort of unscripted test of objectives. Videos of DT methods working in the field. DT instructors engaging with the community in a martial arts context.

 

[drop bear]

Now my smarta$$ question - If you put DT instructors and/or DT trained officers who “buy in” into the cage vs MMAers, would that be your evidence How about a DTer win would be getting the MMAer cuffed, and a MMAer win would be regular MMA rules win?

But we’d also have to account for the DTer being able to taze and pepper spray under local laws. But the MMAer can take those away and their gun and use them too. Gun would contain blanks. Or something like a paintball so we wouldn’t have the argument if the shooter missed, but the gun itself would have to be an exact replica of what they carry. And they’d have to be in full uniform: belt, holster, hidden guns, bulletproof vest, et al. They’d have to submit a picture of them during random routine police work (non-administrative) that was taken by someone else before they knew they were going to compete. Certifying officials would determine the authenticity and decide what they’re going to bring in.

The MMAer has to wear street clothing common criminals might wear, and possibly carry a weapon, as determined by the board. They could also throw in a makeshift weapon or have another guy jump in, criminal or cop.

Now that’s an event. And it would prove DT’s legitimacy and accountability.

Or we could take working veteran officers who also teach DT’s word for it. I haven’t seen any DT trainers selling their systems to the public like, say, Krav Maga yet. Maybe I’m looking in all the wrong places.

They already have that.

 

[drop bear]

Or we could take working veteran officers who also teach DT’s word for it. I haven’t seen any DT trainers selling their systems to the public like, say, Krav Maga yet. Maybe I’m looking in all the wrong places.

You should. According to Ballen you have solved the martial arts riddle.

 

[ballen0351]

You should. According to Ballen you have solved the martial arts riddle.

No riddle just the facts. The stats are out there if you look. The numbers are what they are you have no argument to overcome the facts.

Approx 1 million police officers in the US make millions of arrests a year. Of those millions of arrests there are Hundreds of thousands of cases where the suspect resists. Of the hundreds of thousands of resisting arrest cases in the last 8 years only 8 officers lost their lives from an assault.
Just because you dont see it on YouTube or because they dont hand out a pretty trophy at a competition doesnt make the facts less true.

 

[jks9199]

We get guys full contact fighting MMA in 12 weeks pretty much full time training.

That is what I would consider the least amount of training that an ethical instructor would provide before engaging in a full contact fight.

2 weeks is setting up people to get hurt.

Here's the problem... We don't get 12 weeks. We have some of the longer academies in my immediate area -- about 6 months, 26 weeks or so. And that's not full time DT training... that's covering everything that a rookie officer needs to know (in theory) when they hit the streets. Because, in hour 1 of day 1 of their field training, they can find themselves doing anything from talking to school kids to a life-or-death fight, under fire. So, over that academy session, they not only have to learn enough to fight -- but also things like how to search, how to handcuff, firearms, emergency vehicle operations, legal procedure, laws of arrest, elements of criminal offenses...

So, physical control tactics have to be things that function under high-pressure situations, be learned fairly easily, retained well, be scalable to the resistance encountered, meet legal standards and liability concerns, and more... Traditional martial arts training, wether BJJ (yes, BJJ IS traditional martial arts training) or something else, simply doesn't cut it. That's why there is literally no DT program that is purely a martial art.

I've never said that BJJ can't be of use, or has nothing to teach. But overemphasizing one range or one sort of fighting isn't acceptable, either. For a while, the Gracies pointed to a study of police use of force showing that most fights went to the ground... Yeah, but that was POLICE use of force. And they went to the ground for specific purposes -- to position a suspect to be cuffed, robbing them of a lot of their mobility and opportunities to escape by putting a freakin' planet in the way. If you end up in a submission hold or lock -- you have to be able to transition to cuffing, or the two of you are stuck there until someone rescues you. (Holds and locks aren't as reliable in the real world as some people might think, either, but that's another discussion...)

 

[drop bear]

Here's the problem... We don't get 12 weeks. We have some of the longer academies in my immediate area -- about 6 months, 26 weeks or so. And that's not full time DT training... that's covering everything that a rookie officer needs to know (in theory) when they hit the streets. Because, in hour 1 of day 1 of their field training, they can find themselves doing anything from talking to school kids to a life-or-death fight, under fire. So, over that academy session, they not only have to learn enough to fight -- but also things like how to search, how to handcuff, firearms, emergency vehicle operations, legal procedure, laws of arrest, elements of criminal offenses...

So, physical control tactics have to be things that function under high-pressure situations, be learned fairly easily, retained well, be scalable to the resistance encountered, meet legal standards and liability concerns, and more... Traditional martial arts training, wether BJJ (yes, BJJ IS traditional martial arts training) or something else, simply doesn't cut it. That's why there is literally no DT program that is purely a martial art.

I've never said that BJJ can't be of use, or has nothing to teach. But overemphasizing one range or one sort of fighting isn't acceptable, either. For a while, the Gracies pointed to a study of police use of force showing that most fights went to the ground... Yeah, but that was POLICE use of force. And they went to the ground for specific purposes -- to position a suspect to be cuffed, robbing them of a lot of their mobility and opportunities to escape by putting a freakin' planet in the way. If you end up in a submission hold or lock -- you have to be able to transition to cuffing, or the two of you are stuck there until someone rescues you. (Holds and locks aren't as reliable in the real world as some people might think, either, but that's another discussion...)

Yeah. I don't know how you would fix DT. Even if I could go around and clean up all the random silliness.

The question of development is a more complicated issue.

It just isn't a case of laying down a set of tactics and expect people to be able to do them. More specific tactics isn't always better.

You have to develop a whole host of skills that replicate fighting before you can expect them to perform any specific set of tactics.

And you basically need a BJJ, wrestling, MMA. Something that replicates the timing and pace of a fight.

So even though you might be training the wrong technique you are developing the right attributes and that is more important.

 

[drop bear]

No riddle just the facts. The stats are out there if you look. The numbers are what they are you have no argument to overcome the facts.

Approx 1 million police officers in the US make millions of arrests a year. Of those millions of arrests there are Hundreds of thousands of cases where the suspect resists. Of the hundreds of thousands of resisting arrest cases in the last 8 years only 8 officers lost their lives from an assault.
Just because you dont see it on YouTube or because they dont hand out a pretty trophy at a competition doesnt make the facts less true.

Pretty sure you are not churning out effective fighters in the time frame you have.

There might be some other elements at play there.

I don't disagree cops do the job. I disagree with the idea that their two week human weapon portion plays as big a role as you suggest.

 

[CB Jones]

Pretty sure you are not churning out effective fighters in the time frame you have.

Not training fighters......

 

[drop bear]

Not training fighters......

Yes I know.

 

[ballen0351]

Pretty sure you are not churning out effective fighters in the time frame you have.

Of course not. That's not the goal to be a fighter. The Goal is to teach them enough to come home at the end of the shift. And to get the suspect into custody with the least amount of force needed.

There might be some other elements at play there.

like?

I don't disagree cops do the job. I disagree with the idea that their two week human weapon portion plays as big a role as you suggest.

so what do you suggest is the reason?

 

[ballen0351]

Yes I know.

Taking a large mentally unstable or highly intoxicated person into custody isn't easy and doesn't look pretty. They also tried very hard not to advance to a more serious use of force. They kept striking green areas with the baton (outer upper thigh) vs escalating the force applied. Probably because they knew more people were coming so there was no need to escalate to a higher force level. We deal with guys high on PCP very often. Pain compliance doesn't work on them because they don't feel it. So "submission" style joint locks have no effect. You can snap an elbow and they don't feel it. So your left with getting as many people as you can and dogpile them until you get them cuffed and hope they don't die from excited delirium or positional asphyxiation. It's not pretty especially when they are naked but its the safest method for all involved.

 

[CB Jones]

Taking a large mentally unstable or highly intoxicated person into custody isn't easy and doesn't look pretty. They also tried very hard not to advance to a more serious use of force. They kept striking green areas with the baton (outer upper thigh) vs escalating the force applied. Probably because they knew more people were coming so there was no need to escalate to a higher force level. We deal with guys high on PCP very often. Pain compliance doesn't work on them because they don't feel it. So "submission" style joint locks have no effect. You can snap an elbow and they don't feel it. So your left with getting as many people as you can and dogpile them until you get them cuffed and hope they don't die from excited delirium or positional asphyxiation. It's not pretty especially when they are naked but its the safest method for all involved.

Yeah and often time PCP users are in a state of hallucination and are receiving dumps of adrenaline and cortisol. They might not even recognize you as police....you can become part of their hallucination.

And they feel pain on top of that.

Theoretically, you could do open heart surgery while having a conversation with someone on PCP since they do not feel anything.

It’s some scary stuff

 

[ballen0351]

Yeah and often time PCP users are in a state of hallucination and are receiving dumps of adrenaline and cortisol. They might not even recognize you as police....you can become part of their hallucination.

And they feel pain on top of that.

Theoretically, you could do open heart surgery while having a conversation with someone on PCP since they do not feel anything.

It’s some scary stuff

And they like to hump things

 

[ballen0351]

My favorite is when they are naked humping a park bench and the neighborhood residents are dumping milk all over them because for some reason they believe milk is the narcan for PCP.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My favorite is when they are naked humping a park bench and the neighborhood residents are dumping milk all over them because for some reason they believe milk is the narcan for PCP.

That really, honestly, sounds like something from a Monty Python skit.

 

[ballen0351]

That really, honestly, sounds like something from a Monty Python skit.

I watched a guy get practically waterboarded with a gallon of milk one day. I stood there in amazement as 4 guys held him down and his mother was dumping a gallon of milk on his face. He looked like a dog when you spray them with a water hose and they try to bite the water.