Archangel M
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No..I warned about the people who try to make you believe that they have been outside. Hint. Hint.
Don't go, Don't kill - The hypocrisy of repealing Don't Ask Don't Tell
- Thread starter Makalakumu
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No..I warned about the people who try to make you believe that they have been outside. Hint. Hint.
OP
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- #22
Double post, double dose.
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Archangel M
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People who enlist and risk their lives because they feel a sense of duty and responsibility towards their country have honor. Like it or not, they back up their beliefs via action and sacrifice. They have honor. Integrity and GUTS.
Loads more than people who crusade via posts on the internet after reaffirming their preconceptions from various conspiracy websites.
OP
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- #24
Right, I thought you were doing that.
Dude, if you want to bring the cave into this, fine, but the analogy is a double edged sword. You can't cut someone else with it without cutting yourself.
OP
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- #25
LOL @ Crusade and reaffirming my own preconceptions. That's another CAVE analogy. It's Christmas and I'm simply thinking about Peace.
People risk their lives for a lot of things. Do they all have honor, integrity and guts? Sense of duty and responsibility toward the country sounds like something we can elevate, but it's not real and it's not always good. Would you honor the sense of duty and honor General Custer had when he slaughtered women and children on the American West? How about General Chivington when his men spitted babies cut open pregnant women at Sand Creek? Would you honor a soldiers death if one of those men were killed during that war?
WC_lun
Senior Master
Our soldiers do not get to pick and choose where they fight, when they have to fight. They signed up to serve this country in the military. Doing so they go where ordered to go. They are our sword and shield. If you don't like how the sword and shield are used, then go to the person wielding them...in this case the politicians in Washington DC. Do not denegrate people who actually risk thier lives in the belief they are helping others, either by protecting this country or making other places better.
Denigrating the soldiers does absolutley nothing to forward the cause of peace. It just gives ammunition for those that prefer war to use to turn the discussion away from the issues. It becomes more about "the soldier hating lefties," instead of the negatives of what we are actually doing.
Very few of our soldiers are signing up for service because they think it would be fun to go shoot innocent civilians in a foreign country. It is war though, accidents and tragedies happen. When it isn't an accident, it becomes something other than war and though not perfect, we are pretty good at prosecuting such crimes.
Denigrating the soldiers does absolutley nothing to forward the cause of peace. It just gives ammunition for those that prefer war to use to turn the discussion away from the issues. It becomes more about "the soldier hating lefties," instead of the negatives of what we are actually doing.
Very few of our soldiers are signing up for service because they think it would be fun to go shoot innocent civilians in a foreign country. It is war though, accidents and tragedies happen. When it isn't an accident, it becomes something other than war and though not perfect, we are pretty good at prosecuting such crimes.
Bruno@MT
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They already are. Only before now they had to lie and pretend to be hetero.
Regardless of how you feel about the war or the military, allowing gay people to serve in the military without having to lie about who they are.
Here homosexuality isn't illegal in the Forces, hasn't been for a while and nobody cares frankly, it isn't an issue. We have infantry soldiers in civil partnerships living together in married quarters and it doesn't even raise an eyebrow. As long as a person pulls their weight and does their job that's all that matters.
We've had the discussion that soldiers are war criminals before and I'm not going there again. I think most know my views and I really don'w want to go through all that again.
The family of my student who was killed by an IED in Afghan has asked that we all light a candle for him on Christmas Day, and although I don't celibrate Christmas I've lit a candle for him. RIP Steptoe.
My thoughts and prayers are with all families this holiday who are without their loved ones because they made the ultimate sacrifice. :asian:
Oh and bollocks to any who bad mouth the troops
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I felt much the same way about the woman, until I had the opportunity to hear her speak in person, and while I don't agree with all her ideas and opinions, she is far more well spoken on a much broader range of topics regarding the war than we are often fed in her soundbites.
OP
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- #30
I went to a Peace rally where she spoke and experienced the same.
OP
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- #31
In 2006, it was reported that over a million people died in response to the invasion of Iraq. That's more civilians then the bad guys. I realize that no one signs up to commit war crimes, but the results are often different then the rhetoric. It doesn't denigrate anyone to point out the difference. In fact, from what I've found, people are relieved that someone else acknowledges this uncomfortable fact.
OP
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- #32
Here homosexuality isn't illegal in the Forces, hasn't been for a while and nobody cares frankly, it isn't an issue. We have infantry soldiers in civil partnerships living together in married quarters and it doesn't even raise an eyebrow. As long as a person pulls their weight and does their job that's all that matters.
We've had the discussion that soldiers are war criminals before and I'm not going there again. I think most know my views and I really don'w want to go through all that again.
The family of my student who was killed by an IED in Afghan has asked that we all light a candle for him on Christmas Day, and although I don't celibrate Christmas I've lit a candle for him. RIP Steptoe.
My thoughts and prayers are with all families this holiday who are without their loved ones because they made the ultimate sacrifice. :asian:
Oh and bollocks to any who bad mouth the troops
I train with a lot of marines and sailors at my jujutsu dojo. They are all great guys, but they have a pretty ****** job. I would rather that my friends choose to do something else...until such a time when service to the country doesn't commit oneself to the maintenance of empire.
My whole point in posting this article isn't to battle about who is bad mouthing who, that's definitely not my intent, no matter how it's chosen to be read. It's to point out that this step toward equality is bittersweet because even more people can participate in some of the worst events that humans can do to each other.
Ms. Sheehan is definitely pointing out the hypocrisy of all this. I suspect that all we are looking at is a political stunt designed to throw a bone to the anti-war movement, placating them. I doubt the sincerity of the intentions of people who would prosecute these wars. Anyway, "don't go, don't kill" sounds like a good mantra for the anti-war movement in response to this. It's a good counter point that sends home the message that needs to be heard.
What empire. The last time I looked every country that we ever went to war with is now our biggest competitors on the world market. We keep troops overseas in foreign countries to protect them and us from aggression by Russia, china and the other evil actors out there. Oh, we also use our troops to protect europe so that they can afford all their social welfare programs, I almost forgot that. Germany, Italy, Japan, the phillipines, cuba, latin america, where exactly is this empire you are speaking about. Are you reading stuff from that silly guy Noam Chomsky, the guy making millions getting his work published by the U.S. millitary who then complains about the U.S. millitary and the American empire. You Should check out the book "Do as I say" about all the liberals who are fabulously wealthy and complain about the rich not paying their fair share. Chomsky has his own chapter.
http://www.amazon.com/Do-As-Say-Not...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1293302838&sr=1-1 It is a great read. All the liberals who support union membership, in other states and then deny their own employees the right to unionize. All the liberals who want higher taxes, and then shelter their money overseas. The list is endless and funny.
You know, we didn't just one day decide to send troops to Iraq and Afghanistan all on our own. There were a few, insy, tinsy, little events that sort of made bombing the you know what out of some bad actors pretty necessary. If, Oh, say, 3000 americans had not been murdered simply for going to work in the morning, we wouldn't have invaded anyone. We would still have troops hanging around the border nations of Iraq, watching the U.N. goof offs pretending to look for Sadaams weapons programs. Let's be real.
Not to forget, the first attack on the world trade cente, the bombing of our embassies in Africa, the bombing of the Kobar towers in Saudi Arabia, the bombing of the Cole...
At some point we actually had to start responding to the murder of American citizens, not to mention the murder of our allies in Israel, you know, in their pizza parlors. How manhy times did we have to watch Americans and our friends get killed before we said enough is enough already. People seem to forget about all that slaughter that led up to Iraq and Afganistan, as if they were isolated events. Let's all get in the "way back machine" and travel back to the early 90's and look at all the killing that took place before we actually hit back. How about that.
Did I forget any events, oh yeah that cruise ship the achille lauro, the bombing of the german discoteque. Did I forget any others? Oh yeah, that golden oldie, the murder of the israeli athletes in munich during the olympics. Anything else? Anyone? Bueller, Bueller?
Oh yeah, that million civillian casualty figure is made up as well. The "lancet"article it came from was shown to be highly inacccurate, and Muslim Terrorists are killing more muslims than any collateral casualties from our attacking the terrorists. Yeah, I know, you want me to dig up multiple sources on my "facts" well, if I have time I'll look. Otherwise, look it up for yourselves.
Here is one source debunking the Lancet conclusions: http://news.nationaljournal.com/articles/databomb/index.htm
http://www.amazon.com/Do-As-Say-Not...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1293302838&sr=1-1 It is a great read. All the liberals who support union membership, in other states and then deny their own employees the right to unionize. All the liberals who want higher taxes, and then shelter their money overseas. The list is endless and funny.
You know, we didn't just one day decide to send troops to Iraq and Afghanistan all on our own. There were a few, insy, tinsy, little events that sort of made bombing the you know what out of some bad actors pretty necessary. If, Oh, say, 3000 americans had not been murdered simply for going to work in the morning, we wouldn't have invaded anyone. We would still have troops hanging around the border nations of Iraq, watching the U.N. goof offs pretending to look for Sadaams weapons programs. Let's be real.
Not to forget, the first attack on the world trade cente, the bombing of our embassies in Africa, the bombing of the Kobar towers in Saudi Arabia, the bombing of the Cole...
At some point we actually had to start responding to the murder of American citizens, not to mention the murder of our allies in Israel, you know, in their pizza parlors. How manhy times did we have to watch Americans and our friends get killed before we said enough is enough already. People seem to forget about all that slaughter that led up to Iraq and Afganistan, as if they were isolated events. Let's all get in the "way back machine" and travel back to the early 90's and look at all the killing that took place before we actually hit back. How about that.
Did I forget any events, oh yeah that cruise ship the achille lauro, the bombing of the german discoteque. Did I forget any others? Oh yeah, that golden oldie, the murder of the israeli athletes in munich during the olympics. Anything else? Anyone? Bueller, Bueller?
Oh yeah, that million civillian casualty figure is made up as well. The "lancet"article it came from was shown to be highly inacccurate, and Muslim Terrorists are killing more muslims than any collateral casualties from our attacking the terrorists. Yeah, I know, you want me to dig up multiple sources on my "facts" well, if I have time I'll look. Otherwise, look it up for yourselves.
Here is one source debunking the Lancet conclusions: http://news.nationaljournal.com/articles/databomb/index.htm
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No, you don't keep your troops in Europe to protect us at all, it's for your own benefit. I remember being stationed in Germany in the early eighties and the American troops had no money, the families had to eat in the military messes and we had whip rounds for them to be able to afford food etc. I work sometimes at an American base here and trust me it's not for our benefit it's here. The American bases in Germany were there to remind the Germans who won and to keep en eye on the communists who were a bit too close for comfort.
You need to look at what the governments in Europe politics actually are rather than assume they are all socialists. You also want to look at what we mean by liberals as opposed to what you mean, they are two totally different things, total opposites in fact.
Here's a list of socialist countries in the world, not the lack of European countries there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_socialist_countries
Do you actually know how we fund our welfare programmes? We pay for it through insurance, yes just like you do. Whoever is working pays National Insurance contributions, this is matched by our employers, this funds the benefits like old age pensions, unemployment benefit, disability benefits etc. It also mostly pays for the National Health Service along with tax money so you see we pay for our healthcare just the same as you do but if we can't afford it we still get healthcare.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #35
The Lancet is one of the best journals out there. They retract studies that are proven to be false. Until they retract the claim, I'll keep posting it as a fact. Even if it's half as many, it's staggering. Also, when we count all of the people who died because of our bombing of Iraqi infrastructure and subsequent sanctions in the early 90s through 2003, we can easily count their dead in the millions.
The truth is that the war in 91 never ended. We bombed them to hell, laid siege to the country for 12 years, and then moved in for a slow motion massacre. The Iraqis still can't form a government and the various factions are barely kept from each others throats by our soldiers presence. This war has spanned 20 years and still has no end in sight.
The people who died during the santions died because Sadaam was not giving the food and medicine to his people. It was Sadaam, not the coalition that caused those deaths. Remember, he invaded Kuwait, he lost and had to submit to weapons inspections as terms for his surrender. This was all on him.
Just so people do not miss the debunking of the "Lancet's" medthodology, here is an article that points out that the lancet used a methodology designed for plagues and famines to come up with their stats. Also, since the iraqi government was in ruins at the time there was no way to know the death toll, especially in regards to civillian vs. insurgent caused deaths.
http://news.nationaljournal.com/articles/databomb/index.htm
http://news.nationaljournal.com/articles/databomb/index.htm
Remember the perverted sick son of a B**** was also the West's champion when he attacked Iran. A lot of training and support was coming his way....
Tez, our troops were in Europe to keep the russians from annexing the rest of Europe and to keep them out of your country. Yeah, our troops were poor, I know my parents were, and I was born in West Germany, in a little town called Nuebrucke. We also have troops in Korea, you know, where the north just shelled that little south korean island, and Okinawa and other spots where the bad guys are just waiting to take over. Tez, what are your income tax rates where you live? How about your corporate taxes? How much of your GDP goes to social services vs. your military?
I have to apologize Tez, I don't like it when people expect me to do research for a martial arts website so I am not going to go down that route with you, sorry. We have troops in Europe and asia for our sake and the sake of our allies, it is that simple. I wish we could pull our troops back but it is unrealistic to think that we can. I am going to post Monday about Iran, venezuela and Russia and their move to put Iranian missle bases in Venezuela. The world is a dangerous place and it isn't getting nicer.
I have to apologize Tez, I don't like it when people expect me to do research for a martial arts website so I am not going to go down that route with you, sorry. We have troops in Europe and asia for our sake and the sake of our allies, it is that simple. I wish we could pull our troops back but it is unrealistic to think that we can. I am going to post Monday about Iran, venezuela and Russia and their move to put Iranian missle bases in Venezuela. The world is a dangerous place and it isn't getting nicer.
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Not our champion, just someone who attacked Iran, which was fine with us.
