Dojo Darlings

[Rob_Broad]

How has it that we in the martial arts have hit the same low levels as the Hockey Mom syndrome. Now a days when you go to tournaments you see kids with chips on their shoulder as big as the iceburg that sunk the Titanic. Parents jump out of their seats and verbally berate referees and yell at their kids to hit him hard when they are sparring. I see something very wrong with this. What is your opinion? And how do we correct it?

 

[GouRonin]

This attitude starts IN THE DOJO. You want to stop it you start with teaching not only the kids good manners but you teach the parents too.

Little johnny didn't get a stripe for his belt and he's been here 2 months! Well maybe little johnny needs to start working.

 

[Rob_Broad]

Parents are a major part of the problem, but I also see the children as part of the problem. They know the laws about child abuse,they learn it in school. And children pervert the laws to get what they want. Parents are afraid to discipline their children, and the children rule the roost. I see it everyday. My neighbor( a woman about 5ft and 90 pounds) has to carry her son's hockey bag when she drives him to practice and games. Her son is 13 yrs old and almost 6 ft and close to 200 pounds. There is definitely a problem. But this actually the norm if you go to an arena and watch the parents bring their kids to practices.

I think we need to stop being so politically correct. Yes, racism sucks. Abusive people need help. But we are all living in bubbles afraid that we might offend someone. It is time to stop this nonsense. It is time for parents to give their children a swat on the bottom when they misbehave. That is how I was brought up and I didn't make the same mistakes twice. I still use sir and Ma'am, thank-yo and please, and yes I got spankings as did most of our parents. Child abuse laws are good, but they should not be abused.

I used to have kids expect to get a stripe on their belt every third week because that is the way the group I was affiliated with did business. It made me feel cheap like I sold out. We had temper tantrums when I did not put on stripes. I had parents spout off at me when I did not put on new stripes. They even called the person who I was affliated with and told him I was not teaching right. Honestly how do they know. Have they put the time on the floor, Hell No, so who are they to tell me how to do my job. We as a society are too used to things being handed to us and get upset when it is not handed over quickly, cheaply and with a smile.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Part of the problem is the sence that its a "sport" like bowling. You get a stripe for "attendence". Of course, thats also part of the reason why people are getting stupider. They keep dumbing things down. Used to be 75% was failure...then 65%...now, its 55% And Oh MAN!!!! the bitching that happened when they wanted to raise the requirements for a HS Diploma to include reading and writing.

Little Johnny has to have his stripe...or else his self-esteme will suffer. I mean, Mary got one, and Timmy did too. So you better give Johny one or his dad (The Fat Guy with food stains on his ohhh to small tee shirt) will kick your *** (the -real- black belt with 3 years in the Army). :shrug:

I said it before...I'll say it again.... a 5yr old Black belt is a terrible thing.

:asian:

 

[Sandor]

Rob I know what you are talking about. Some of that may be due to children being their parent most prized posession, and in that context maybe they are too, but a good amount of it is just that people have forgotten the important things in life like respect and honor.

I see a mom carrying a bag into the school and the kid empty handed and there will be a lecture at the beginning of class regarding the issue. Same with opening the door for the ladies etc. I am not afraid to dole out pushup's in this day and age of call HRS if mommy makes you mad. Some don't like it and are advised to leave. Most however learn from us ways to get the upper hand with their kids and appreciate the help. I couldn't tell you how many times I have heard a parent tell me that they have the phone in their hand, yelling at a misbehaving child and telling them they are going to call me. It works.

I have done it before and will do it again. If you are steadfast in your position on this issue so will you.

The stripe thing on a schedule is a completely different topic. I refuse to do anything on a schedule like that. It has cost me students in the past but it has brought in many more than it has cost. Rank, be it a stripe or half belt or full belt, is something that has to be earned. End of story. Little Johnny doesn't get a stripe without the work involved in earning it.

Remember a door swings both ways; it may say enter on one side but it says exit on the other. Don't forget to remind people of that from the beginning. Training with us is a privlege and parents need to be on notice that their tuition fees may pay for some things like a nice place to study with great instructors but it doesn't mean they can buy the integrity of your school.

I have sent plenty of parents packing over the years and it NEVER hurt the school to do so. We teach about 140 children and the parents are dynamite too. They are not afraid to let me know whats going on, who is grumbling about what and they understand that working the program(discipline, honesty, integrity, respect, etc.) is something that needs to be done inside and outside of the dojo.


Peace,
Sandor

 

[Rob_Broad]

I believe that it is an honor to train. I am in the process of opening a new school in January and I am in the mind to have the age minimum of 12yrs old. I will eventually allow children as young as 5yrs old, but not until the end of August 2002. This way I can concentrate on building a strong teen/adult base and recruit a couple assistants to help with the chilfren's classes.

I will also have a set of 7 home rules that will accompany every child to their home. They will sign a copy that I keep, and a copy for their refidgerator. They will entail how they are to behave and the consequences for misbehaving. I have no problems removing a stripe from a child's belt or even dropping them down a rank if they misbehave or even suspending their training for a period of time. I will also have a thier grading sheets set up so they have to take them to school so that the parents know a little more about what is going on with their children at school.

I want to stomp out the idea it is okay for parents to be beligerent and their children to be brats. I also want to give the best training possible to te children that I teach not have a belt factory.

 

[Sandor]

In business, it is wise to have a USA as part of your corporations 'angle'. USA stands for Unique Selling Advantage. Take those ideas which you have about the correctness/integrity etc. and use them as yours.

You won't be sorry as long as you do it right. We teach around 200 children, teens and adults. In our community we have developed a reputation as being an old school type school with some updated ideas on how to do things. For us we can say we are one of a very rare type of school where everything has to be earned. I make no promises about rank or time and reinforce the idea of you get what you earn from the first day. We are brutally honest about this and have produced some amazing pratitioners.

If a parent wants that 'commercial...my kid has to be a bleack belt..yada yada' mentality I recommend the schools they need to go to in the area, I don't need their money so bad that I will try to sell them on somethig they have no clue about. Lots of them come back a year or two later and enroll their child with us as they see the wisdom of what we offer. They learn the hardway, some where else or learn to appreciate the concept that it is not about the end but the journey getting there.

Read my post about kids as black belts on the CKF site when you get a chance. I'll give them one when they have earned it but we are talking 5-7 years down the road from when they start. I'll never have to worry about a 5 year old black belt in our school. It'll never happen

I am real proud of that and we use that as our USA. Find yours and develop your business around it. Keep in mind though, sometimes, in business you pay real hard for your ideals on the road to success. Keep at it and it will pay off.

Peace,
Sandor

 

[Sandor]

Rob, you are on the right course idea wise. I hope the info I posted helps you out in the future.

Some of it won't sink in for a few years. Trust me on this. A very wise man told me lots of the stuff I just puked at you. I have been a school owner since before my 21st birthday. More than a decade later I realize how much I could have learned from that wise person but was too young and ambitious to realize what he was saying.

Someday when you consider yourself to have been successful as a school owner for a couple of years ask me who the wise man was. Till then it will be a secret worth waiting for.

Wisdom comes from many years of experience.
Experience comes from haveing made lots of mistakes...

Sandor

 

[Rob_Broad]

I am glad to see that I am not the only one who has a problem with children that run adult's lives.

 

[girlychuks]

Ach, it's all about living vicariously thru your child. Part of me feels bad for the mothers that are missing out on the sport themselves, part of me cries for the kids that are missing the spiritual growth that comes thru martial arts instruction.

As far as stopping the problem, it is up to the instructors and schools to not instruct, or to assign hard humility lessons to those children that are not in the proper place of respect.

Thankfuly, my dojo is very strict in that issue- I have seen three kids thrown out in a year when they got cocky in the face of sensei or they abused thier skills. THey are also very clear in what constitutes belt advancement, and what is required. I am grateful for this attitude in my instructors.

I have been in the martial arts for half as long as my daughter, and the above type of instruction has two effects that I am grateful for: 1) I know that we are learning and not being belt displays and 2) My daughter and I are learning the thrill of civil sparring, and we are learning among true students.

 

[Cthulhu]

My instructor only taught young children once, a pair of brothers, both under 10. As far as ranking went, they didn't get any preferential treatment...if they didn't earn a stripe/belt, they didn't get it. Period. I think that's the way it should be.

A possible way to curb parents who think their little snot should get a rank advancement just for attendance/paying dues is to state the requirements for rank EXPLICITLY when they join. Also be specific in the type of manners you expect in the class and let them know that misbehavoir absolutely will not be tolerated.

I think we were fortunate in that the parents of the children in the class rarely stayed to watch. More than once, when the kids were goofing off too much or starting to pick on each other, they were made to sit out of the class. Personally, I don't think I would train anybody that young, with the exception of my daughter (who, at 2, already has a mean kick! )

When I was a kid, I got spanked whenever I misbehaved. When me and my brother got into a fight, we both got spanked, no matter who started it. When my daughter misbehaves, I spank her. I will continue to do so unitl I think she's old enough for other forms of punishment. I defy anyone to stop me from disciplining my daughter in the way I see fit. It's not like I'm roundhouse kicking her in the face. A pop or two on the behind with an explanation why she is being spanked is all she gets. I'm sorry...'time out' DOES NOT WORK. My parents spanked me when I was a child, but I don't fault them for anything. I'm mature enough to know that it was all for disciplinary reasons and not abusive. When I got spanked, I deserved it (and boy, did I deserve it a lot...I'm a baaaaaaaad boy ).

I'm sick of seeing kids being blatantly disrespectful to their parents...in public, no less! I have to fight the urge to take that brat over my knee and spank them myself.

Okay, I'm going to stop now. I've rambled on again.

Cthulhu

 

[GouRonin]

Again I will say that martial arts do not teach manners. People teach manners. Hopefully you find a school with people who ascribe to good manners.

 

[Rob_Broad]

Gou I agree, the martial arts do not teach manners, nor were they ever created for this task. The martial arts is war like it nature. People want to instill all kinds of things in their children because they do not or can not do it themselves.

When I was a kid I got spankings, I got a slap here or there when I misbehaved or mouthed off. So what! It did me no harm, and I learned not to do the bad things again. Sometimes I had to have the same lesson more than once, but I did learn.

When I do re-open, and start taking children for students again I will be making sure that I let all the parents know that I am not running a day - care centre. I am there to teach martial arts not do their job of teaching their children what is right or wrong.

 

[GouRonin]

They don't teach manners. I mean really...look at me.
:wavey:

 

[Rob_Broad]

Gou, your manners aren't that bad. besides when your wife is around you are very well behaved.

In all honesty for any of you who haven't met Gou, he is one of the nicest and polite people you coould meet. If you ever get the chance to meet him, do so, and consider your self a lucky person.

 

[GouRonin]

He's obviously drunk. :cuss:

Lies. All lies! I'm mean! Mean I tells ya! :angry:

 

[Rob_Broad]

I spent some time dropping off a flyer at a local YMCA a few weeks ago for an upcoming event that I thought the students might like. And as I walked down the big hallway that leads to the stairs to where I was going I saw the people I was going to deliver the flyers to training in a raquetball court. I will not comment about their training facility, it is better than a cold garage. As I walked by I saw a child I use train up until last June. He was a Yellow belt at that time. As I walked by I noticed he was was now 3rd degree brown belt. His class was just being dismissed and he refused to get of the floor because he lost a sparring match. He was swearing, and threatening to quit because he didn't think it was fair that he lost. My first thought was I would have kicked his little bottom out of the school for 3 months if he came back he would have apologize to get on the floor ever again. My second though was how does a kid go from Yellow belt to 3rd degree Brown belt in 8 months. My third thought was how can a brown belt act that way even if he is only 9 yrs old.

I walked up to one of my former students and asked what was going on, he said it was time for the nightly temper tantrum. I told the guy I would catch up with him at the end of class and asked that he not tell all my old students that I was there. I wanted to speak to the Instructor to make sure it was ok to hand out the flyers. I waited up above their class watching intently as they warmed up, and was amazed that these people's techniques had decreased so much since they started training with their current instructor. It turns out that he has gone back to the sloppy training methods he had in the past, and has no sense of discipline. He refused to allow me to hand out the flyers for a great upcoming event where they would all benefit. Since I am no longer affiliated with his instructor I am the competition and therefore evil.

As I was leaving at the end of the their class, I decided to use a side door to sneak away feeling shame for what I had seen that night, one of my previous students came up and asked me if I had a few minutes to talk. I said ofcourse so we amd a couple others went for a coffee. He told me how far the school had degenerated, how the instructor showed up only half the time, and Brown belts with little more than 3 yr experience run most of the classes. He always shows up for the first class of the month to get paid , and is always there to greet his instructor when he shows up for gradings, he then melts in to the wood work til the end of the testings. There is no longer any discilpine in the school, no morale, most of the students only show up a third of the time because they know they don't normally get their lessons.

When I asked about the temper tantrum I was informed that the child like most of the children there are mainly learning tournament stuff, and the kid was awarded his brown belt because he had won a bunch of tournaments for he school. The kid is very small and his opponents have a hard time getting a point in, since the head is not a target in the local tournaments.

I am now wondering how much of the Dojo Darling thing is traced back to the instructor. I believe with the poll that is currently running http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1338 about the lack of discipline in the modern martial arts can be partially traced directly to an Instructor who wants the dollar more than they want to teach. This disgusted me to the point where I couldn't write about or talk about until this time. I was trying to help a friend who owns a martial arts school that had a great event palnned. To those that have read the thread about OKKA camp http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1093 , you would know how an event like this would benefit any martial artist especially a kenpo practioner. It is really sad when little minds control what others think and learn.

Yes I am sorry that this has been a long winded rant, but I finally had to let it all go, and I find this to be oneof the best methods I know.

Lets stop the Dojo Darling syndrome, stomp out the Mc Dojos and concentrate on quality arts that retain their discipline and integrity.

 

[Cthulhu]

Sounds like you need to take some of your own students back, particularly the ones who voiced their concerns over the decline of the classes. Just train them in your backyard. Better yet, do it for free, just to really yank this other instructor's chain.

Cthulhu

 

[Rob_Broad]

Have thought about offering my services to some of these people again, but I would never do it for free. They have had too much of a free ride as it is. It is time that they start earn what they learn. They had it easy before I bought the school and then cried when I would not kiss their butts. I find most of them to be spoiled and ungrateful. Thye will have to prove their worthiness this time.

 

[Cthulhu]

Even if you charge them, it sounds like at least a few of them are aching for some real instruction. Of course, the brown belt brat (three points for alliteration!) doesn't get an invite.

Cthulhu