Can I Get Fries With That

[Rob_Broad]

:soapbox: In my opinion the Mc Dojo is ruining the martial arts for everyone. These belt factories that give black belts for good grades really bring us all down. There is a difference between a large successful school and a Mc Dojo. As long as the quality of the instruction, and quality of the student is not compromised there is no problem with the size of the school. We all know instructors who guarantee that a person will get a Black Blet in "X" amount of time and for this one low price. What do you guys think? And who is to blame for this phenomena?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I think the attitude is because if you don't "award" them a belt, people feel cheated. The whole "I came to learn, and how can I learn if I dont get belts?"

Another part is simple greed. $40 for a belt test, ever other month. Of course, the school uses half-belts. 10 students = $400 every 60 days, p[lus of course the $75/student/month 'training' fee, plus the 'required' gear (like $25 for a $5 jock). Its the money part.

1 school I looked at a few years ago -required- you to buy all your gear from them. For "safety" reasons they said....Its all "Quality" they said. Everything was 20% over SRP.

Its a racket. They turn out assembly line blackbelts who lack the basic moves like Break-falls, who haven't gotten more than a dozen hours sparring (if that) who suddenly think they can handle a streetfight. Its dangerous...and people are getting hurt.

Of course, I don't think you can truely earn a belt when you spend 20minutes 2x a week "training" (note - time removed for warmups, attendence and other BS). I think it takes real dedication and time spent (like an hour or 2 a day minimum). This whole "Test every 9 weeks and get a belt" stuff is crap. 1 school I've been to in the last 2 years has never in that time frame seemed to have a student fail a belt test. Something odd about that...oh yeah, and they just raised test fees.

School I'm currently training at tests you when you're ready...not when their checkbook needs a refill. I prefer that. Makes me feel I really earned it.
:asian:

 

[GouRonin]

I hear ya. Unfortunately the schools that don't do this are the ones who suffer.

People should not be allowed to get a belt just for showing up. When you're told that you can't make contact or spar due to legal reasons or repercussions what does that say?

But what the hell do I know?

 

[Rob_Broad]

As an instructor I know about having to pay the bills, and they never stop. But to simply hold gradings because people have been their for X number of classes doesn't equate. I personally use the idea of if they are ready then they can test, not until. But it is tempting for an instructor to put up a couple other people during the next grading just to have a nice Christmas. I go both ways on the half belt idea. For adults no. For children why not, you can cut the material in half for each belt, but you should also cut the cost of testing to maybe 2/3 because you still have to pay for the belt, the certificate and your time. Instead of giving belts for achievement I gave crests and that worked a lot better than rapidly promoting people for good grades and attending your special events. The Mc Dojo is a dangerous thing they give people a false sense of security and that can be dangerous.

 

[girlychuks]

FWIW-
I train at what has, over and over again, been referred to as McDojo, on many other newsgroups. I was very concerned so I have kept my eyes open-
however, I have yet to see any scams that go on. True, there is testing fees, but there is no invitation to test before you have learned the material, and learned it well. We have no "half belts" either.
Also, the only piece of equipment I was "required" to buy from the school itself was a $5 patch with the school's name on it. Everything else, i was told by my sensei to see where I can get it the cheapest-
on the othert hand, in my brother's school (not same style nor school) you get an "honor" patch by getting another student to sign a yearlong contractt. Hmmm

My point- I know I am a snot-nosed beginner- but I know my school has had rumours said about it that, from what I can see, are just not true. So I just try to be accepting of the politics and stay above it-

 

[GouRonin]

Why would everyone be calling your school a McDojo? Is it just jealousy? Is it a McDojo? There has to be some resoning behind it. Is it because of the orgaization it belongs to? Maybe it's the manner in which you test?

Overall I don't know why people might say that and it might not be true, but it's hard for us to say either way with the limited info we have here.

Some scams don't work outright in front of people's noses. They give schools a bad name that are working hard at their art.

Overall though, as long as the school satisfies you then stay.
:asian:

 

[girlychuks]

Well, I suppose it would be called a McDojo in the aspect that it is one of a chain in a very large number of states.
The school does make me happy- I have visited several other schools and there were singular dojos and other arts that seemed a lot less concerned with the art than money.
Either way, I'm just a baby getting into it, so almost anything will help me at this point

 

[Bob Hubbard]

When picking a school, some things to keep in mind are:

Atmosphere:
Am I comfortable here? Do I feel welcome? Are the instructors patient with the new students?

Knowledge base:
Are the instructors prepared? Do they know the material? Are they qualified? Do they take the time to properly warm up before class?

Return on Investment:
Am I getting what I came here for? Am I getting my money AND! times worth?

Case in point - 1 school I went to, didnt do any warm ups. Injuries weree common. They also thought nothing of sticking me on a streching machine for an hour....I walked funny for a few days....:shrug:

Another school, the head instructor had read a lot of books, and watched a lot of tapes, but his black belt was worth $5 + tax. :shrug:

If youre going for fitness, do they do alot of cardio?
If your going for self defence, do they steach it, or it it just the motions?
etc.

How do you evaluate this? Its hard when you're a "newbie". Ask, take notes, shop around, and don't fall for the hype.

IMHO - If youre comfortable there, and getting what you want out of it, then its a good school.

:asian:

 

[Rob_Broad]

Most McDojo scams are perpetuated on children and their parents. Parents love to hear that their children are doing good, so they buy right into the fact that their child is the next up and coming Black Belt. It is harder for McDojo's to cam adults. They have to play their cards just right with people who have no or very little martial arts experience. It is usually played on some one who has low self esteem, and is usally a loner.

 

[GouRonin]

The only large chain I can think of is Fred Villari. He does Shaolin kenpo and with his chain it's hit and miss. Some of them are great, some are...well...not.

 

[Rob_Broad]

The problem with chain schools is there is no consistency. The head of the chain may be phenominal but that person can not be teaching in all the schools at the same time. Chuck Norris had this in the late 70's early 80 when he a chain of schools. He is reported to be a great teacher, but those in other schools were not as qualified. After a while the chain school is not so much about the quality of the instruction, but more opening that next school in the chain.

 

[paulk]

The term McDojo is new to us in the UK but we have a few, well quite a lot really.

What has surprised me is a stateside website for an impressive setup offering to give me my next Dan grade for $25, no proof of skill, knowledge or anything just an implicit trust between martial artists.

Not my way.

I think I've met a few customers though, haven't the heart to tell them red tape is cheaper.

Should we buy dan grades, what do you guys think?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I think you do a disservice to both yourself, and anyone you train with if you simply buy them. I'd rather earn them, even if it takes a little longer than I'd like. I left a school where after a "stripe" test, that I brainfarted, and had to be almost physically walked thru the motions, that I got the "good job, you earned it"...its funny, I never in 2 years of visiting and 6 months of classes saw a single student fail either a stripe or belt test.

I mean, if you really want to short cut, just print your own certs and raise yourself to supreme-grandmaster with mushrooms. (its lunch time...heh)

:asian:

 

[Icepick]

Those "buy your black belt on Ebay" deals crack me up!!!

I think another sign of a legit school is when the instructor encourages you to X-train. Renegade always led his students to seminars outside our art, and had new and different people in to our school.

When I moved back to Syracuse work on a Ph.D., Renegade visited a "kenpo" school with me. We reasoned that since the Modern Arnis open hand stuff often resembles Kenpo, it would be a good fit. I spoke with the instructor and she informed me that the school has seminars once a month. Of course, the instructors were from that school. We then took a class, which culminated in intense "one-step" sparring.

As I threw my strike and posed, statue-like, waiting for the counter, the brown belt partnered with me said "Umm, Umm, Umm", while the instructor screamed "DO SOMETHING". The best student there was the one wearing a white belt, they hadn't ruined him yet.

If a teacher is afraid of you seeing something else, ask yourself why.

 

[Rob_Broad]

If we are buying rank can I please get the Tae Bo Black Belt from Century. I have very littel hair, so I could pass myself off as a much paler version of Billy Blanks without the bas acting skills. If I can, I promise not to add any stripes to the belt until I have bought atleast $5000.00 of merchandise from Century at wholesale prices. At every $5000.00 in product from Century I sure that they would vouch for me as X-degree Black Belt in Tae Bo.

 

[GouRonin]

Someone I know video ranked to a few belt stripes in black. Claiming it was very tough. So I took a video of techniques and watched it. Mimiced a good portion of them and sent the video off to the guy and lo and behold he sent me back a black belt and rank certificate.

I don't wear it.

But Jaybacca and I always have a good time laughing about it. Techniques I don't even know. Anyone can make themselves look good on video.

"The rank may show, but it don't mean you know."

 

[Rob_Broad]

Gou

That guy who sent you a certificate and belt; does he pose like he should be wearing blues tights, a red cape and should have a big "S" on his chest.

 

[GouRonin]

You know the instructor I am talking about and the guy who does the video grading.

I did it to prove a point. I don't wear it.
:angry:

 

[Rob_Broad]

I didn't know that you did that, but I put 2 and 2 together and came up with scam.

 

[brianhunter]

Im in Wichita KS the biggest small town you will ever see. We have what is called "Kim's TKD Academy" they have belt factories all over town. Some guys teach at rec centers etc. I am a police officer, so sometimes we can land jobs as security at these rec centers. I watched their testing several times over 6 months, I never once saw anyone failed and I seen kid after kid after kid being brought in to train. I dont know who to blame..the parents (who dont know any better) for thinking they are doing their kids good. The instructors for not really having much in the way of true arts.....but to me it wasnt the kids, they didnt know any better I wanted to stand there after class and pass out flyers for parker kenpo.
We are an instant gratification society and I think this has a big deal to do with it. People refuse to demonstrate patience now more then ever and it is being reflected in the children.

Just my 2 cents
Brian Hunter