Does Wing Chun train to Fight?

Discussion in 'Wing Chun' started by Yoshiyahu, Aug 24, 2019.

  1. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I might get my fitness coach to handle this.
     
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  2. snake_monkey

    snake_monkey Orange Belt

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    I have stated that I have proof for myself and that I might be willing to share the clips that I have as well. Would anybody recommend sharing a clip to this website and if so where?
     
  3. Eric_H

    Eric_H Black Belt

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    These things are not equal, and I touched on conditioning in the fitness area. You can be perceptive and relaxed in training and have none of those attributes in a combat situation. The flight or fight response is a real thing, particularly when engaged with a situation you are not used to or prepared for.

    I'm not disagreeing that these things can be built, and can be valuable - but I can argue that they won't actually be there for the average case when in combat unless you've practiced having them in combat like situations. This involves the engaging the stress reflex. I don't have a better tool to do that than sparring/resistance training - if you have one that's working for you, please share it.

    Ideally, it should be gained from training, not as was said elsewhere in this thread a mediocre fitness program bolted on top of a martial arts curriculum. I think the comparison to sparring or BJJ rolling is an apt one.

    I'm not sure what the thrust of this post is. Nobody here is challenging you to anything as far as I read. You are entitled to an opinion, and we are entitled to agree and disagree with it. This is a relatively friendly martial arts forum, no harm no foul here.

    Thanks for your response, I appreciate you answering these points honestly though I didn't really intend it as a quiz :wacky:. I can see where the term sparring might not set well with some, would "training against heavy active resistance" be any better?

    I had picked light sparring/full contact because those are the competitions I've seen/been in at kung fu tournaments. I consider them separate as people can not spar in their own curriculum but still go and compete in those arenas - I've been/met people like that. It usually doesn't end well, but there are exceptions.
     
  4. ShortBridge

    ShortBridge Black Belt

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    I boxed in my teens and did Muay Thai in my early 20s and sparring is de rigor there of course. That's not the way that I teach or practice Wing Chun, but I do stress and test my students in a way that works for us. Someone might call that "sparring", but it's different than my context for it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
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  5. snake_monkey

    snake_monkey Orange Belt

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    Sure, I agree this is a friendly martial arts forum. My response was to the Xu Xaiodong clips posted as I believe there is a lot of controversy for nothing (I.e. show business). I think a bit of sparring such as in the higher levels of Wing Chun drills is totally sufficient to train a person in fighting. I am not on that level in my school but the sparring experience I do have has shown me what my strengths are and my weaknesses. (I’m not going to front like my style of MA is better than any other style but you know I am confident in my abilities).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2019
  6. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I just have a crappy dump file on YouTube and just link them.

    My view is there isn't really enough people interested in my rubbish to out anybody.

    I think I have about 2 subscribers.
     
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  7. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    One of the values of having some level of fitness training in the classes (even if it's just some moderately extended periods of fairly intense movement drills) is it sets a level for students to be at. If students struggle at that level, they're likely (if they want to hang around) to do at least a little about it outside of class. Nobody really wants to be the first person to gas out during drills, or to be the one who can't finish the warm-up.
     
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  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    If you can get them to provide input on that, it would be much appreciated.
     
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  9. MetalBoar

    MetalBoar Green Belt

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    Oh yeah I agree, as I said in my first response on the topic I think that MA training sessions should regularly contain drills or sparring that really challenge the students' endurance. I think that's the best way to develop endurance for your art and that everything else is less direct and less efficient and once it's at sufficient remove (say long duration, slow paced jogging for someone who only cares about endurance for 3 minute boxing rounds) it becomes pointless. I also think warm ups are important, but they can be pretty brief and still be effective, especially if followed by drills that are increasingly challenging in terms of effort and/or range of motion. Along these lines, I think that it's possible to sequence drills in ascending difficulty and not have a dedicated warm up at all, though I don't think it's necessary or always desirable.
     
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  10. MetalBoar

    MetalBoar Green Belt

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    Oh, I should add that there are going to be students who start off so deconditioned that they're effectively unable to reach the fist rung on the ladder, so to speak. This sort of outlying case might indeed need some help with simple, basic fitness just to come up to speed and I'm an enthusiastic supporter of making martial arts accessible to people who really need and want to get in better shape. I'm not sure how a small school with limited time and resources can best address these cases but I guess if it were my school I'd want to try.
     
  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I like a dedicated warm up, in principle, because it lets me work specific areas I find commonly lacking. Some basic bodyweight exercises will help strengthen those who are below the baseline, and be an easy warm-up for those who already have that strength. It also gives me a chance to see what students are struggling with (who has an achy shoulder, etc., that they haven't mentioned). But I incorporate some of the actual drills as early as I can. Falls and rolls can make a moderate-intensity drill. Forms get folks focusing on balance while warming up their bodies, etc.

    And sometimes, I just get impatient and go straight to work, using the ascending intensity approach you refer to.
     
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  12. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    One of the things I use my dedicated warm-up time for is to teach some exercises they can use later. I randomly use a few variations of push-ups, mountain climbers, planks, etc. When classes are small enough, I'll even break out whatever equipment is at hand and teach exercises with those.
     
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  13. snake_monkey

    snake_monkey Orange Belt

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  14. ShortBridge

    ShortBridge Black Belt

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    I agree thenTKD practioners are generally better at TKD than WC players.
     
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  15. Snark

    Snark Orange Belt

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    I don't know about this. Back in the the 90s as a young cocky 18 year old, I competed in taekwondo events. Fitness was a massive part of the training, to the point we had a sick bucket outside the door, for people to be sick in and then come in and continue training. The place I learnt taekwondo also did wing chun and had some ex army guy teaching self defence. I cross trained with one of the wing chun instructors one weekend and was repeatedly shut down. I didn't join his class and later moved out of town but it stuck with me until I found a teacher later on.
     
  16. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Throwing up during exercise isn't at all about fitness.
     
  17. Transk53

    Transk53 The Dark Often Prevails

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    You learn fighting by fighting? No you would learn how to get your **** kicked pretty quickly.

    An instructor can give you the skills to defend yourself, teach you an art and discipline to succeed in said art, not to mention proper conduct and respect etc..

    No instructer can give you theory on how to fight, that would just result in you getting hurt. More than that, the instructor shouldn't be teaching if his students are leaving class and going to find people to pick on.

    You don't train any martial art with a view to fighting, that just isn't the point to it.
     
  18. Snark

    Snark Orange Belt

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    I guess not, it was more about over exertion during high intensity workouts. It was a lot of machismo, no one was allowed to stop, if you couldnt keep up everyone in the class had to do more of the exercise until you caught up. Etc. Exercise-induced nausea - Wikipedia.

    The instructor would get us to lie down and run across our stomachs, a couple of people took time off from bruised ribs during sparring, one guy actually cracked his ribs. Short of it is, I was the fittest I have ever been in my life and won a couple of full contact events, and I still got shut down.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
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  19. Willzzz

    Willzzz White Belt

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    The brutal truth is that wing chun is just not as good as other martial arts that make up MMA, and that the fighters that wing chun schools produce are not as good as fighters that your average MMA school would produce. Compared to the talent that pervades the modern scene of martial arts, an "excellent" chunner tends to just end up being on the same level as an "average" MMA guy.

    It's a hobby for me that I train on the side, and it somewhat helps me gain grips and positions in no-gi grappling. There's a few tricks in chun that can surprise a few guys that are not used to dealing with another person's arms in the way chi sao teaches you, but it is by no means dominant. Fighters will adapt and compensate to your tactics fairly quick, so the chun only really provides you a split-second of advantage. Usually just boils down to mind games that makes your opponent second guess your grip fighting proficiency. Other than that very nuanced aspect in grappling only tournaments, I would not devise a game around the skills I learned in wing chun.
     
  20. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    I would agree that Wing Chun, as it is typically being taught and trained today does not produce many fighters, and would not be a good foundation art for MMA. I would not agree that it "is not as good as other martial arts that make up MMA". Let me clarify:

    Wing Chun does not have a well developed ground game, or even highly effective defenses against trained grapplers. But that doesn't make it a bad martial art. Boxing and Muay Thai don't have ground games either.

    On the other hand, even as a striking art, commonly trained Wing Chun lacks some of the essentials for the octagon: evasiveness, like the footwork to head movement found in boxing, and the powerful smashing kicks of Muay Thai. Some of WC's best kicks are straight stomping knee and groin attacks. The groin attack is out, and the knee attack like the "oblique kick" is effective but controversial.

    Still, I believe that Wing Chun does bring useful elements to the MMA table, not as a replacement for other arts, but as another adjunct. A friend of mine and local MMA trainer agrees. But he points out that the end product is not majority WC. It is MMA and will look like MMA. It is just informed by some WC concepts. Alan Orr's lads, the "Iron Wolves would be an example:



    Beyond that, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a lot of WC informed MMA fighters to suddenly start emerging. People with potential who want to compete in MMA don't train at your neighborhood WC kwoon playing the chi-sau game. They go to a good tough MMA gym for proven, well rounded training. And with the poor rep that WC has, I can't see too many MMA gyms adding a WC coach to their staff. Heck, where would you even find a qualified WC coach for MMA these days? I couldn't handle that. There are a few guys who could, but they're the exception.

    Still, I'd like to see a few more guys like Alan Orr give it a try.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019

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