Does Wing Chun train to Fight?

Discussion in 'Wing Chun' started by Yoshiyahu, Aug 24, 2019.

  1. Encho

    Encho Green Belt

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    Sometimes in a real fight it's better not to fight but to run, use a weapon things often not trained in sparring. As for your fish out of water comment, the beta fish often jumps from his puddle to find another puddle one of the reasons they are tough. It has been a while Yoshi I remember a while back with your wing Chun is an internal art discussion
     
  2. ShortBridge

    ShortBridge Black Belt

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    You are making declarative statements and I can't help but wonder what your credentials for making them are. Have you trained to an advanced level, done light sparring, then found yourself unprepared when you experienced a real-world fight/assault(s), then changed your training to include free sparring, found yourself again a street fight/assault and then you were successful?

    Or are you doing exactly what you are critising: asserting knowledge that is either speculation or regurgitation of things you have heard or read other people say?
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
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  3. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I don’t train wing Chun, so that part is moot.

    Regarding the rest...nah.
    I would not be prepared to enter an MMA competition, and I never claimed that I would be.
    I disagree with the rest.
     
  4. snake_monkey

    snake_monkey Orange Belt

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    There is a huge rift in schools of thought. Traditional martial artists should not be divided in this. Think of it contextually and realize that TMA with roots in Buddhism / Taoism may not spar or fight but it doesn’t mean that the school’s students can’t fight (this is extremely important to note that this is on a case by case basis) . Training should do a number of things to increase an individual’s fighting ability whether you actually fight or not. Think about it - the ‘little idea’ sets the stage for all further actions and experiences.
     
  5. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    You can't do that if you need to protect your family members or your love one.

    If a girl has 2 boy friends, during the girl needs protection,

    - boyfriend A will run and leave his girl in dangerous.
    - boyfriend B will stand in front of that girl and protect her.

    Which boy friend will that girl to choose to be her future husband?
     
  6. Encho

    Encho Green Belt

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    Did you not see the word "SOMETIMES"

    Here since you have difficulty reading
    Sometimes in a real fight it's better not to fight but to run,
    Sometimes in a real fight it's better not to fight but to run,
    Sometimes in a real fight it's better not to fight but to run,
    Sometimes in a real fight it's better not to fight but to run,
    Sometimes in a real fight it's better not to fight but to run,
    Sometimes in a real fight it's better not to fight but to run,
    Sometimes in a real fight it's better not to fight but to run,
    Sometimes in a real fight it's better not to fight but to run,
    Sometimes in a real fight it's better not to fight but to run,
    Sometimes in a real fight it's better not to fight but to run,
    Sometimes in a real fight it's better not to fight but to run,
    Sometimes in a real fight it's better not to fight but to run,
    Sometimes in a real fight it's better not to fight but to run,
    Sometimes in a real fight it's better not to fight but to run,
     
  7. Encho

    Encho Green Belt

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    By the way I put you on ignore, as I hate to see what other naive things you have to say
     
  8. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    Wow!
     
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  9. Eric_H

    Eric_H Black Belt

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    Does wing chun train to fight?

    It’s a question I’ve put a lot of thought into, and it’s hard to quantify. First of all Wing Chun isn’t some united art - there are what, 30 recognized variants of it? Many don’t even share basics in stance and strategy. This makes picking a 'Wing Chun' to measure against an already biased outcome.

    Second what does one mean by “fight?”

    Again, a “fight” is a shorthand way to describe many different situations - an unexpected attack by an untrained but unknown assailant, a known combative test against an opponent skilled or unskilled, survival against odds unfavorable by way of numbers or force multipliers… the list goes on.

    The best we can do in this situation is try and get to an average.

    I haven’t trained at 32+ schools, I have touched hands with people from probably 20 or so. Not enough for a statistically significant sample, but hey, I’m just one guy. My numbers might be a bit fudged due to memory, but I’m relatively certain they’re accurate-ish.

    0 / 20 did sparring as part of their main curriculum
    19 / 20 think chi sao isn’t for fighting, but spend most of their time there
    0 / 20 did reality based self defense drills or scenario training
    2 / 20 did modern weapon work
    6 / 20 had any sort of fitness training
    1 / 20 had other styles in the same gym to train with
    4 / 20 had competitors in anything resembling fighting (light sparring or full contact)

    Doesn’t look very promising, does it?
     
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  10. snake_monkey

    snake_monkey Orange Belt

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    There are a few things that you didn’t account for which make for increased fighting ability (or self defense in some cases); Perception, Sensitivity, Relaxation, Conditioning, and more which may be a result of ‘Wing Chun’ training.
     
  11. MetalBoar

    MetalBoar Green Belt

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    I'm not sure this part is necessarily a criticism. Strangely enough, I generally don't want my MA school to do much fitness training. Many of those that do aren't great at it, and even if they are it takes time away from skill acquisition which is what I'm there to get. Don't get me wrong, I'm thrilled to do drills, spar, or train in ways that challenge and improve my fitness, but I'd rather not pay for or waste time on mediocre general fitness instruction when I can do it on my own, usually better, at a time that's convenient.
     
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  12. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Which is the results that come from sparring.

    The ability to basically dial in your martial arts to meet that specific environment of someone who wants to take your head off.



     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
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  13. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I disagree. Fitness should be fundamentally part of martial arts because it is a major component to being a practical martial artist.

    Otherwise this notion springs up that there are these somehow magically fitter stronger guys who can fight and these weak anemic martial artists who can't and have to make excuses why they get beat up all the time.
     
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  14. snake_monkey

    snake_monkey Orange Belt

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    I had mentioned that these are a result of ‘Wing Chun’ training. Sparring or not. I’m not challenging anyone to a fight here and I won’t be butt sore if I don’t win a fight that I have agreed to. I fly I ever find myself in a ring it’s as the saying goes ‘may the best man win’. No judgement it’s just how it goes.
     
  15. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Are they the results of wing chun training?

    And how would you know?

    Where as do the concepts we train work?


    There is definitely evidence to suggest it does.
     
  16. snake_monkey

    snake_monkey Orange Belt

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    I haven’t been in a fight but I have sparred a bit outside my school. I know my abilities and my limits, and that’s about all I know. I’m not interested in proving anything about ‘Wing Chun’ just trying to give some additional perspective. If you are interested I can DM you some info or clips, but I typically don’t because they are old clips and I don’t want anyone sharing them without my permission.
     
  17. ShortBridge

    ShortBridge Black Belt

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    Agreed. It's a decentralized art. You can't really generalize. Though every Wing Chun thread here goes right to generalization.

    I don't really like to talk too much about what we do and how we do it, but I'll take the quiz:


    0 / 20 did sparring as part of their main curriculum
    the word "sparring" is kind of tainted at this point for me. Hard contact against non-compliant opponents. yes. Maybe not "main curriculum", but when practitioners are ready, then yes.


    19 / 20 think chi sao isn’t for fighting, but spend most of their time there
    I actually think that chi sao is somewhat relevant to fighting skills, but we actually don't spend all the much time on it. Probably not as much as we should. It's just one of the things that we do, depending on what we're working on.

    0 / 20 did reality based self defense drills or scenario training

    Yes, definitely.

    2 / 20 did modern weapon work
    A bit. I'm not the most qualified to teach modern weapons and I don't personally advocate the use of weapons in every day self-defense scenarios. But a student of mine used to be a firearms trainer for a federal LEO agency and we certainly try to relate what we do to the world that we live in without pretending to be something that we are not.

    6 / 20 had any sort of fitness training
    We do a bit, but I try to make it specifically relevant to what we do. My SiFu does more in his club. Most of my students are involved in other athletic entanglements and get our conditioning in outside of class time, but we do a bit.

    1 / 20 had other styles in the same gym to train with
    We do not.


    4 / 20 had competitors in anything resembling fighting (light sparring or full contact)
    I don't consider "light sparring" competition and I thought that we covered sparring in the first bullet point, but we do participate in tournaments. There are better places to train if that is your interest, no doubt.
     
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  18. MetalBoar

    MetalBoar Green Belt

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    Fitness should be a fundamental part of martial arts if you want to be good at them, sure, but most martial arts instructors don't or can't do a good job of helping people achieve it. Why should I waste my time and money doing calisthenics and mediocre body weight exercises for 20-30 minutes of every class that are only going to be indirectly beneficial for my art anyway. Especially when there are much better ways to use that time?

    Let's take BJJ or grappling in general as an example. Rolling hard for an appropriate period of time is the most efficient way to develop endurance for grappling, anything else is a less direct way to try to inroad those metabolic pathways. I'm sure there are grappling specific drills that are a good second best. Skipping rope, doing calisthenics or running can be helpful for developing that endurance if it's done at the appropriate level of intensity but it's not as efficient as just doing the thing and you're only getting more skilled at skipping rope or whatever. Body weight exercises will develop strength to a point but they aren't nearly as efficient as weight training. These seem to be the sort of thing a lot of MA gyms do for fitness and it makes sense because they're easy to do with a room full of people. You can do that at home to maintain your fitness between classes but it's a poor use of time in class in my opinion.

    Going further, I think it's most useful to focus on your weakest link, and if you can't roll hard for any length of time without getting totally winded then you need to spend more time rolling to condition yourself to it and work on developing the skills to grapple efficiently so as not to tire yourself out fast. I've provided strength training to a number of BJJ players ranging from white to black belt, mostly in the blue/purple range. The thing that stands out for me is that they are almost universally relatively weak if they haven't been doing strength training already and it's their weakest link by far by the time they've reached blue belt. Most body weight exercises aren't going to do a lot for them because they're strong enough that it takes a greater level of effort to significantly trigger an adaptive response. When they start lifting weights they universally tell me that it's a lot easier to submit people.

    I know some MMA and BJJ gyms have weight lifting equipment but I'm not sure it's the majority. Even if it was, how many of the instructors are qualified and want to be strength coaches, how many students do they have time to do strength training with? Besides that, lifting weights isn't the best activity to combine in the same session with trying to learn a physical skill like BJJ. If you're going to have to come in on a separate day to do the weight lifting it probably makes more sense to do that somewhere else and not waste the space in your BJJ gym.

    I care about this because I don't have much time to train in the evening when most of the MA classes take place. I don't want to waste it on things I can do when I've got openings in my schedule. I don't care if someone else is mistaken about this, what other people think has no impact on my training. I do care if instructors start including a lot of less relevant fitness instruction in their classes to meet the requirements of someone's check list.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2019
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  19. ShortBridge

    ShortBridge Black Belt

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    I can't edit my post, but noticed a typo.

    We do NOT participate in tournaments. That sentence in my last paragraph omitted the "not".
     
  20. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    But I think a perspective needs proof.

    Someone does this, and this happens.

    Anyone can say their method builds sensitivity. But without any sort of quantifying element I don't know what that really means.

    It is the sort of non existent statements that prevents arts like Kung Fu from being able to train to fight as there is no data on what is working for them.
     
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