Do you think its to dangerous drinking in different countries other than the USA?

jobo

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Potential problems with study

The Journal and the Authors Hyped this Study

The study's findings were not terribly remarkable. In fact, there is reason to be skeptical of them.

Problem #1. The study did not properly adjust for all confounders. A confounder is any factor that is associated with both the exposure (in this case, alcohol) and the outcome (in this case, various types of cardiovascular disease and death). One of the most famous examples of confounding occurred when a study concluded that coffee caused pancreatic cancer. The authors did not adjust for smoking, which was associated with both drinking coffee and pancreatic cancer. As it turned out, coffee drinkers were also likelier to smoke, and it was the smoking that killed people, not the coffee.

In this alcohol study, the authors adjusted for age, sex, smoking, and diabetes. That's good, but it's not sufficient. There are other confounding factors that are associated with drinking and cardiovascular disease or death, such as profession, socioeconomic status, race/ethnicity, diet, and exercise frequency. It is entirely plausible that people who drink every day also have other lifestyle factors that are associated with cardiovascular disease, such as a poor diet or lack of exercise. Maybe heavy drinkers have stressful jobs.

The point is that the alcohol may not be to blame. However, we can't determine this from the study because the authors didn't even bother to collect data on it.

Problem #2. People who drank 100 grams of alcohol per week had a lower risk of all cardiovascular diseases. It's only when cardiovascular disease (CVD) is broken down into various subtypes that the data show higher risk for one type of CVD and lower risk for another type of CVD. For example, the risk of stroke increases, but the risk of myocardial infarction (heart attack) decreases. Overall, people who drank 100 grams of alcohol per week did not have a higher risk of death. It's not until a person consumes two drinks per day (~200 grams per week) that the data suggest an impact on mortality. (See figure.)

alcoholdeath.jpg


That means that the authors purposefully highlighted the scary data (i.e., each additional 100 grams of alcohol increases some types of CVD) and downplayed the bigger picture -- namely, that 100 grams of alcohol isn't dangerous. Why? The authors have a specific mission in mind, and they admit it in their paper: "These data support limits for alcohol consumption that are lower than those recommended in most current guidelines."

Problem #3. Scientific studies need to make sense within the context of what else is known about the topic. Europeans drink more alcohol than Americans, yet they (Western Europeans, anyway) have longer life expectancies. How do the authors explain that?

Problem #4. Because the authors didn't find any damning data for people who consume 100 grams of alcohol per week (again, that is roughly one drink per day), they shifted their focus to people who drank more than that. They concluded that people who drank 200 grams per week (about two drinks per day) had a shorter life expectancy of six months. Not only is this finding subject to the same confounding problems mentioned earlier, it's not a clinically meaningful result. If a person expects to live to be 85 and instead dies at age 84.5, who cares?

The only clinically meaningful data was for people who had roughly 2 to 3.5 drinks per day or roughly 3.5+ drinks per day. Those groups had shorter life expectancies by 1-2 years and 4-5 years, respectively. Of course, that's not a surprise. These people are alcoholics.

Problem #5. The Guardian's coverage was particularly atrocious. They quoted one professor (not associated with the study) who said, "This study makes clear that on balance there are no health benefits from drinking alcohol." That's not at all what the study showed. In fact, it showed the opposite: 100 grams of alcohol per week was linked to less overall cardiovascular disease.

Problem #6. I e-mailed the lead author, asking about many of the problems I cited above. She did not respond. I will be charitable and assume it's because she was too busy to respond, but she wasn't too busy to respond to either the BBC or The Guardian, both of which sensationalized the study. That makes me think that this media frenzy was precisely what the authors wanted.

Problem #7. The Lancet also ran an editorial that said, "The drinking levels recommended in this study will no doubt be described as implausible and impracticable by the alcohol industry." The implication is clear: Anyone who disagrees with the paper is a paid shill for Big Alcohol. That's not science; that's propaganda.
you've clearly copied and pasted that

but yes, there are other life style factors, but poor life style choices is an effect of regular drinking, you just don't meet many fit slim healthy 50 year old who drink to any level, so is it the same lack of respect for their body that means that also have a poor diet and don't exercise sufficiently o, is it cumlative effects of alcohol th has affected their self respect and cognitive function, they clearly can't address weight and health issues until they have adrrsed their adiction, as their adiction is adding to them day after day
 
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Chrisinmd

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you've clearly copied and pasted that

but yes, there are other life style factors, but poor life style choices is an effect of regular drinking, you just don't meet many fit slim healthy 50 year old who drink to any level, so is it the same lack of respect for their body that means that also have a poor diet and don't exercise sufficiently o, is it cumlative effects of alcohol th has affected their self respect and cognitive function, they clearly can't address weight and health issues until they have adrrsed their adiction, as their adiction is adding to them day after day

Yes I copied and pasted the review of the study. Told the potential issues with the study mentioned so take it for what its worth.
 

jobo

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Yes I copied and pasted the review of the study. Told the potential issues with the study mentioned so take it for what its worth.
you seem to have leapt on the issues that support your world view, rather than doing a careful weighing up of the issues, no where in that rebultsle does it say achol isn't bad for you, it just seems to be arguing that it won't kill you before the heart attack you get from "over eating" and lack of exercise does, ignoring the obvious issue that over eating and lethargy are a byproduct of alcohol consumption
 
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Chrisinmd

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your rather missing the point, alcohol kills you very slowly, its effects are cumulative and to the most part irreversible, average life expectancy in a country of say 80 includes all the none drinkers who lived to 90 and all the heavy drinkers who died at 50, you can't take just basic figures and come to the conclusion it has no effect on life expectancyc in any individual case and it has quality of life issues, not just fatality issues. it's not fun if you have alcohol induced brain damage and can't remember your grand kids .

if you need to drink to have fun, then there's is something fundamentally wrong with your life

Yes I would totally agree with the quality of life issues is almost just as important as the life expectancy issues. But how likely are you to experience those quality of life issues if you drink at a moderate or reasonable rate? Sure if your a heavy daily drinker or frequent binge drinker yes.

And yes I have plenty of fun when im not drinking. But it can be enjoyable on occasion
 

jobo

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Yes I would totally agree with the quality of life issues is almost just as important as the life expectancy issues. But how likely are you to experience those quality of life issues if you drink at a moderate or reasonable rate? Sure if your a heavy daily drinker or frequent binge drinker yes.

And yes I have plenty of fun when im not drinking. But it can be enjoyable on occasion
what argument are you putting forward and what is moderate and reasonable, ,

if your saying that having one class of wine on a Sunday dinner time will not adversely affect you, I'm in agreement that it will take several life times to see the health effects. the more you increase that the more damage you do, the more likely the effects will manifest with in your life time, and the more severe the effects will be.

it's a poison its always bad for you, if you take it in faster than your body can remove it, you get intoxicated and the level of damage increases.

you may not be an at risk person as your consumption is so low, but that not the case yoiuve been putting forward, which is that it's not detrimental to health and well being and life expectancy at any " reasonable" does.
reasonable doses are not the societal norms, as people do it with the intent of becoming intoxicated, so by definition that's not " a reasonable dose" and is harmful

if a loved one was sniffing glue and using the same logic as you, would you say, yea fine, as long as its only three sniffs three times a week, that ok

nb, 30 years ago, I got through the day at a very dull and unpleasant job , by sniffing typex thinner, before they made it water based, it was in retrospect a very stupid thing to do and I should have sort my career options out
 
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granfire

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what argument are you putting forward and what is moderate and reasonable, ,

if your saying that having one class of wine on a Sunday dinner time will not adversely affect you, I'm in agreement that it will take several life times to see the health effects. the more you increase that the more damage you do, the more likely the effects will manifest with in your life time, and the more severe the effects will be.

it's a poison its always bad for you, if you take it in faster than your body can remove it, you get intoxicated and the level of damage increases.

you may not be an at risk person as your consumption is so low, but that not the case yoiuve been putting forward, which is that it's not detrimental to health and well being and life expectancy at any " reasonable" does.
reasonable doses are not the societal norms, as people do it with the intent of becoming intoxicated, so by definition that's not " a reasonable dose" and is harmful

if a loved one was sniffing glue and using the same logic as you, would you say, yea fine, as long as its only three sniffs three times a week, that ok

nb, 30 years ago, I got through the day at a very dull and unpleasant job , by sniffing typex thinner, before they made it water based, it was in retrospect a very stupid thing to do and I should have sort my career options out
well, you are already starting off with bias.

We do agree Chlorine is a poison? It should always be bad for you!
Natrium is an alkali metal, bursts into flame when it comes int contact with air.
Really bad for you, right!
 

Buka

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Stupidity is a poison too. But we seem to have plenty of it here in the States. And the fkrs seem to thrive.
 

Gerry Seymour

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you seem to have leapt on the issues that support your world view, rather than doing a careful weighing up of the issues, no where in that rebultsle does it say achol isn't bad for you, it just seems to be arguing that it won't kill you before the heart attack you get from "over eating" and lack of exercise does, ignoring the obvious issue that over eating and lethargy are a byproduct of alcohol consumption
Actually, what the information she posted says is we can't tell if the alcohol is bad or not. At a low level, it appears to have some minor beneficial effects (reduced risk of myocardial infarction) and some minor risks (raised risk of stroke), but either of those - or both - may be confounded by other variables.

The comparison to the coffee study is a good point. More recent studies show longevity benefits for even heavy coffee drinkers, which is a direct contradiction to the conclusions drawn from the confounded studies. Of course, it could as easily have gone the other way.
 

granfire

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Some studies make me scratch my head, or rather the conclusions they come up with!
one time I saw a thing on cutting boards. They compared plastic to wood.
They found - as expected - bacteria on the plastic cutting board.
But none on the wooden ones! They assumed that the wood fiber killed the bacteria as it dried out.

Ergo?
Use plastic cutting boards, because you can bleach them!
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

a German study was following juvenile marijuana users into adult hood. A large number were diagnosed with mental issues as they become older
The study was small and well, they concluded, or intimated that weed use in childhood makes you develop mental issues.
As the study was small, and you can't really make people part take in illegal substances, and of course nobody considered that the individuals might have been self medicating for the early onset of what ever condition it was....

Somewhere studies like this are junk.

There is a really old joke:
A professor has a demonstration in his lecture with a flea
he has the bug sitting on his finger and commands 'jump'
The flea jumps
Then he cuts the legs off the flea and puts it back on his finger
"Jumps" - nothing happens

'You see, students: When you cut the legs off a fleam, god strikes it with deafness!"
 

jobo

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The study data don't seem to support that statement. There may be data that support it, but I've never seen any.
eh
ethanol alcohol is a poison, that isn't ( I thought) up for debate if you want data, Google a chemical data sheet for ethanol

are are you ssuggesting poisons arnt bad for you ?
 
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granfire

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eh
ethanol alcohol is a poison, that isn't ( I thought) up for debate if you want data, Google a chemical data sheet for ethanol

are are you ssuggesting poisons arnt bad for you ?
Chlorine is a poison, too, yet you ingest it every day.
As I said, you approach with bias. Ethanol is a solvent.
 

jobo

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Chlorine is a poison, too, yet you ingest it every day.
As I said, you approach with bias. Ethanol is a solvent.
I don't ingest it every day
but you keep posting much the same thing with out explanation are you saying that as you are exposed to toxic substances everyday, its a good idea to purposely expose your self to another one ?

if not what point are you making
 

granfire

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I don't ingest it every day
but you keep posting much the same thing with out explanation are you saying that as you are exposed to toxic substances everyday, its a good idea to purposely expose your self to another one ?

if not what point are you making
yes, you do ingest it every single day
you can't avoid ingesting it,
Because as half of the components of table salt you HAVE to.
It is actually essential, particularly when you work out and sweat a lot.

and of course the other half is essential in other parts of the body's functions
Na+/K+-ATPase - Wikipedia
 

jobo

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yes, you do ingest it every single day
you can't avoid ingesting it,
Because as half of the components of table salt you HAVE to.
It is actually essential, particularly when you work out and sweat a lot.

and of course the other half is essential in other parts of the body's functions
Na+/K+-ATPase - Wikipedia
no that's a silly arrgumet, salt doesn't contain chlorine, it contains chloride, which to save you googling has an additional electron and so is a different chemical, it's usually a clue, when it has a different name !

so no chlorine in salt, at all !
 
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Monkey Turned Wolf

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no that's a silly arrgumet, salt doesn't contain chlorine, it contains chloride, which to save you googling has an additional electron and so is a different chemical, it's usually a clue, when it has a different name !

so no chlorine in salt, at all !
This site suggests that pure salt has chloride, while table salt has chlorine. No idea how trustworthy, it was the first thing my google search found.

A brief history of salt – Real Salt
 

Dirty Dog

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no that's a silly arrgumet, salt doesn't contain chlorine, it contains chloride, which to save you googling has an additional electron and so is a different chemical, it's usually a clue, when it has a different name !

so no chlorine in salt, at all !

Water treatment plants commonly use chlorine as part of the treatment process. So it's quite likely that you do ingest chlorine regularly.
 

jobo

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Water treatment plants commonly use chlorine as part of the treatment process. So it's quite likely that you do ingest chlorine regularly.
they use very low doses of choline in the uk water treatment and I own a water filter that removes that and the far more worrying aluminium, chlorine will boil off aluminium wont
 

granfire

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This site suggests that pure salt has chloride, while table salt has chlorine. No idea how trustworthy, it was the first thing my google search found.

A brief history of salt – Real Salt
it's the same element. Cl.
the chemical bond makes the difference

@ DirtyDog Tap water is usually laced with Chlorine in the US but the constant presence makes us go 'noseblind' to it, and only when they had an 'incident' at the plant and had to increase the amounts can you really tell again.

You notice it when you come back from a civilized country (like Europe) and then WHOA, that Chlorine smell is strong!

Oh, and yeah, stuff is absorbed through the skin, like in showers.
 

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