Do not disagree vs. agree

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Kung Fu Wang, Jan 16, 2019.

  1. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    Also... feedback that’s too narrow, or feedback that’s based on to many “what ifs.” I really like the guy and respect his knowledge, but there’s a guy here who uses “if your opponent does A, you do B; if he does C you do D; if he does E you do F” and seemingly keeps going further with it far too much. After reading stuff like that, I’m more confused than when I started and have a hard time remembering what the original thing even was to begin with.
     
  2. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    You may address the discussion that we have in the "Judo head lock" thread.

    If we talk about application, we have to talk about

    - technique,
    - counters to that technique,
    - counters to those counters,
    - ...

    You cannot say that a technique A is useless because it can be countered by technique B. When you say that, the other will say but your counter B can be countered by technique C and you can use technique A to set up technique C.

    I like to get into this kind of "combo" discussion. You may not like this kind of discussion, but I have always believed that MA means "change".

    The MA tree discussion can be stopped at the root, at any branch, or even at the individual leaf. How far will that discussion go depend on at least 2 persons who like to go deeper.

    A tree root discussion may reach to a tree leaf discussion. If you punch my head and knock me down, the discussion will end right there. But if I can block your punch, the discussion will continue.


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
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  3. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    I don’t disagree ( ;) ) and I genuinely like reading your replies. But that type of discussion can get into way too many “what ifs.” There’s a counter to practically everything. There’s too many things one can do and the other can do to react to that.

    My point is it can get overwhelming. Especially for someone who’s not very experienced. Someone trying something new (even if they’re experienced) isn’t going to need advice on option E; they’re looking for A, possibly B, and maybe C. Beyond that is overkill and really starts to distract from A, which is what they were asking about from the get-go.

    I like your input. You’re one of the guys who puts more thought into your responses than the norm; possibly more though into it than anyone else here. I’m used to it and expect A-E at a minimum from you; but it can get difficult to follow the whole thing and remember what was initially asked sometimes.

    It’s definitely not a shot at you. If I came off that way, I sincerely apologize. 99% of the time I agree with what you’re saying. If I’m looking for an opinion, it’s you, Buka, Tony, and Gerry who I’m paying most attention to to be honest.
     
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  4. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    To me the more "what ifs", the more personal benefit that I can receive for myself.

    I have written a book "head lock" (I have no intention to publish it). In that book, I have considered all possible counters, counters to counters, ... If through the online discussion that I can find any counter that I have not considered, I'll add that into my book.
     
  5. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    So that's what it looks like inside your thought process
     
  6. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    It's more fun to discuss how to change from technique A into technique C depending on opponent's respond B.

    - I don't like just one level discussion (such as I use single leg, you are down).
    - I like multi-levels discussion (such as I use single leg, you pull your leg back. I step in and inner hook your other leg, you then ...,).
     
  7. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    You and I are almost similar in that way. I'm probably more like a plastic bag full of water. Where the opening appears, is where my technique flows. The size of the opening determines the technique used. Bigger openings allow for bigger flow of techniques, smaller openings have smaller techniques that flow through.

    The shape of the plastic bag is caused by it's reaction to the environment and the skill of my opponent, and both change how the water flows. The only thing I know for sure is that water will leak. The technique will flow.
     
  8. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    I was a computer programmer until I retired from IBM back in 2003. When I write a computer program, I have to consider all cases. If there is a case that I have not considered, my program won't work.

    I always want to write a computer game that I can apply all MA techniques and my opponent also can apply all MA techniques. I stand in front of my TV screen and my opponent stands in front of his TV screen. My opponent and I can have a real fight. That mean I have to program all MA techniques (kick, punch, lock, throw, ground game, short weapon, long weapon, ...), counters, counters to counters, ....

    Hope that computer game will be available someday.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2019
  9. Hans Larrave

    Hans Larrave Yellow Belt

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    THE TWO STUPIDEST COMMENTS IN HUMAN AFTERTHOUGHT:

    "Let's agree to to disagree."
    "Everything happens for a reason."

    On a chess board these two perspectives cannot exist.
    Therefore, I have never agreed to disagree.

    I will "respectfully disagree" or "2nd your opinion" or "give it some thought"
     
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  10. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    We spend a lot of time trying to say something that's have no meaning such as:

    - It depends.
    - You haven't told me anything that I don't know.
    - You should ask your teacher.
    - It's just trade off.
    - Both are correct.
    - You can't learn from video.
    - If you think you have it, you don't have it.
    - Black is not true black. White is not true white.
    - Money is not everything.
    - ...
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2019
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  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Several of those aren't actually meaningless, John. I'm not sure what your point is.
     
  12. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    IMO, it's better not to say anything than to say some meaningless thing such as, "We have to agree that we disagree."
     
  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't agree. Sometimes, it's useful to simply acknowledge that a discussion isn't approaching an agreement. By acknowledging that, it lets the other person know that there's probably not much point in continuing at that time. There are probably better ways to do it ("We'll just have to agree to disagree" is often delivered dismissively).
     
  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I forgot to finish what I was saying. There were other examples you listed that actually say something. Here are some:
    • It depends. Sometimes it actually depends upon something. If you ask me whether it's better to have a car or a motorcycle, that depends upon what you want it for.
    • You haven't told me anything that I don't know. It's not the best way to say it, but it does at least communicate that the diatribe (usually that's what precedes this statement) isn't presenting new information.
    • You should ask your teacher. This is often actually good advice. If someone asks me why they haven't been invited to test or something, that's not a question I can answer unless I'm their instructor.
    • Both are correct. Sometimes both are correct. There should probably be some clarification, but the base statement is sometimes accurate.
    • Money is not everything. It actually isn't. I've walked away from a job that paid well, because doing it was sucking the life out of me. I'd really rather be broke than broken.
    Most of those statements are communicative. I would have issue with them only if they don't fit the context or (in some cases) if they are the only reply - they often need more explanation.
     
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  15. donald1

    donald1 Senior Master

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    It's a bunch of nonsense if you ask me. I'm an idiot. I need simple answers. Yes! I agree or no! I disagree. I don't wanna hear any of this I don't disagree or disaproval stuff!
    Good day to you!
     
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  16. Hans Larrave

    Hans Larrave Yellow Belt

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    We must be brothers, from another life KF Wang. You totally understand my perspective. I think there is beauty is not knowing. At times having no answer, or anything to add can make you closer with the other person.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    well. . okay. I agree? ;)
     
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  18. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    There are times where it's perfectly valid to disagree. When asked what you value more, money vs. Power, I could say money is more important, and you say power is more important. It's fine that we don't agree on that.

    Other times, it's simply not worth the effort to argue. I've seen people argue over who said what a week ago, when the outcome is the same. I've no issue saying "you're right" to end the argument, but some people dont accept that if they dont think you mean it, so then I say "we'll agree to disagree".
     
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  19. donald1

    donald1 Senior Master

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    [​IMG]
     
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  20. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Master of Arts

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    Stumbled upon another little gem:

    "it’s not a disagreement, it’s an ‘alternative agreement’."

    XD
     
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