discussion of techniques

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Mormegil
For the MT kick to the thigh...if I can't shield it in time (which I'm not even sure I really want to do), I would try to cut kick to the supporting leg. So, from a left lead (matching), I quickly step forward and right to get out power arc of the kick, and deliver a left hook kick to the supporting leg, probably with my own shin. Hopefully they would have fallen having their supporting leg knocked out from under them. If not, or even while they're falling (if I can be that fast), I follow with a R cross (I'm already would up for it), lead punch (hook, uppercut etc), and cross. Next move depends on the position they are in.

If I really didn't see the kick coming, and was immenently going to be hit, and there was nothing I could do to move out of the way or directly counter, I would roll my lead (left if matching), inward so the kick hits my hamstrings instead of the side of my thigh. I think I can take a lot more punishment there, and it will be less likely to buckle my knee. I'm not turned to the right, and will follow with a cross, hook, cross combo, maybe finishing with a lead kick.
.....

Yeah, that would do it, if you time it fast enough.

If however, as it most likely to happen, the kick comes too fast, then pray that you have conditioned your shin, and use a shin to shin block. That would be the shortest reaction time counter.

 

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by pesilat
Generally, I find that problems like what you describe come from a lack of commitment (this may not be your problem, but it's the most common cause).

Always think "attack." Yes, you're right, if your elbows are down, then the kick usually won't get through. But if it does, it should have been slowed down. Some of the energy should have been bled off. Often, if it gets through, you can drop your arms, trap the leg, takedown and lock.

As far as your balance, try using the same body mechanics that you use for a Muay Thai knee. But instead of having your hands on the back of his head or body, they're on his leg. And instead of kneeing into his face/ribs, you're kneeing into his leg.

Hope that made sense and helps

Mike

That does. Thanks. I really like the idea of doing it like a Muay Thai knee. I can't wait to try that out!

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by akja
Boy, you have a lot to draw from!

LOL. Yup. I'm still a relative youngster, but I've toddled around the block a couple of times and am familiar with some of the houses in the neighborhood

Mike

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mormegil
That does. Thanks. I really like the idea of doing it like a Muay Thai knee. I can't wait to try that out!

Cool. Glad I could help

Mike

 

[Erkki]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
lol, you are assuming that the MT fighter is a one trick pony. All real attacks are in combo, ie, one attack with several follow up, each depending on the out come of the previous attack...

Actually, I assume that all attacks will be in the form of a combo. Whatever he throws, it doesn't matter. My objective is to take him out before he can fire that second technique with enough power to do any damage. How do I do that? It's called timing.

 

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Yeah, that would do it, if you time it fast enough.

If however, as it most likely to happen, the kick comes too fast, then pray that you have conditioned your shin, and use a shin to shin block. That would be the shortest reaction time counter.

Good point. I assume you're talking about the first technique, the cut kick. I don't do as much sparring as I would like, in fact I only go to the gym once a week (I'm in grad school, so broke and no free time). So honestly, I can pick up most people's Thai kick and counter with a cut kick, when thrown ALONE. In combo...well, I'm just not there yet. In that case, I'd have to go with the oh ***** technique of the leg roll, the second one I mentioned.

Just to clarify on the cut kick, I'm not trying to beat the oponent to the punch...er kick. Firstly, I'm sidestepping to take the bite out of the kick. That takes about as long (maybe 10-15% longer) to do that raise my leg for the shin block. His kick should then land at my back, at the point of his knee or thigh (less power), at the end of his power arc ("zero pressure" principal from Kali). Just after his kick lands, and WAY before he plants down, I should have made contact against the supporting leg.


I really liked the responses to my question. It's really interesting to see a non Jun Fan / Wing Chun response to a Jun Fan / Wing Chun technique. Obviously, I'm use to training with the expected technique and counter from that art.

Akja, for every counter there is a counter. I now this could keep on going, but I just had to throw in my response to that reaction. So, I'm talking about the first response, the natural one, inside block to eye jab. Once I felt the obstruction on my right lead punching hand, I would probably automatically shoot my left fist up in an uppercut, sliding over your right arm to maintain the trap for a punch to your chin. Now here's the tricky part. Knowing me, if your block was relatively light, not crossing the center-line much (as I think it would be if you were to continue to an eye shot in one motion), my right hand would pull down into a guarding hand (vertical palm facing left), hooking your forearm in to block the eye shot. These would be at the same time, left punch / right guarding hand (don't remember the Cantonese name). This would be immediately followed with a left slapping trap (pak sao) to your left hand (grabbing the forearm) to replace the pressure from my right hand that just left, I would also try to keep pressure on your right arm at the elbow with my forewarm forcing in and down into your floating ribs to maintain the trap on your right. I mentioned the right arm just left, it went for a punch upward to the face or jab. I think I would probably go to the kenjit siko again, as I mentioned before.

Now I mentioned the tricky thing. Well, back at your block, if it was a really, really strong block, knocking my hand away from center line, I would and take your energy from your block, dropping my arm, as I left slap block (pak sao) your left arm as it comes in for the strike clearing out of the way, leading into my right arm for a back fist coming from behind and under my left arm (think of a speed bag motion).

That's what I would LIKE to do. What I would probably do, is this: As you block hard, I woudl sense the "emptiness" and do the wrong thing - left uppercut as I would in the original scenario. I think I would still attempt the right back fist with the left block, but it would rpbably be too late. I would have been nailed in the eye. I don't like that trade.

Pesilat. I really like your counter. As the punch comes in, would you say it would be prudent for me to execute a right wing block (boang sao) to counter your sliding leverage punch? Depending on the energy, I would follow by an elbow rollover to a left grab (lop sao) and right backfist , or a right lop sao and left uppercut, followed by a slapping block to the left arm and right punch as mentioned above.

Of course a counter to the lop saos would be a shoulder check and or head butt. Man, it never ends!

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mormegil
Pesilat. I really like your counter. As the punch comes in, would you say it would be prudent for me to execute a right wing block (boang sao) to counter your sliding leverage punch? Depending on the energy, I would follow by an elbow rollover to a left grab (lop sao) and right backfist , or a right lop sao and left uppercut, followed by a slapping block to the left arm and right punch as mentioned above.

Yes, a boang sao would be a valid counter if you could change the energy of your punch quick enough.

But here's another possibility. Pivot clockwise and right tan sao while shooting a punch over my trapped arm with your left hand. This requires a less dramatic change in structure (i.e.: going from a punch to tan sao vs. punch to bong sao).

Mike

 

[sweeper]

in responce to Mormegil's question, I would most likely use my rear hand to stop the lead punch wial sinking back and stopping their forward motion with a lowline sidekick or a front thrust to their thigh/hip. But if I was going forward at the time and couldn't sink I would probably use my back hand to ntry to nock the punch outside and slip inside than try to tie them up in a clinch of some sort or if that wasn't posable, thrust kick.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Mormegil
Good point. I assume you're talking about the first technique, the cut kick. I don't do as much sparring as I would like, in fact I only go to the gym once a week (I'm in grad school, so broke and no free time). So honestly, I can pick up most people's Thai kick and counter with a cut kick, when thrown ALONE. In combo...well, I'm just not there yet. In that case, I'd have to go with the oh ***** technique of the leg roll, the second one I mentioned.

Just to clarify on the cut kick, I'm not trying to beat the oponent to the punch...er kick. Firstly, I'm sidestepping to take the bite out of the kick. That takes about as long (maybe 10-15% longer) to do that raise my leg for the shin block. His kick should then land at my back, at the point of his knee or thigh (less power), at the end of his power arc ("zero pressure" principal from Kali). Just after his kick lands, and WAY before he plants down, I should have made contact against the supporting leg.


I really liked the responses to my question. It's really interesting to see a non Jun Fan / Wing Chun response to a Jun Fan / Wing Chun technique. Obviously, I'm use to training with the expected technique and counter from that art.

Akja, for every counter there is a counter. I now this could keep on going, but I just had to throw in my response to that reaction. So, I'm talking about the first response, the natural one, inside block to eye jab. Once I felt the obstruction on my right lead punching hand, I would probably automatically shoot my left fist up in an uppercut, sliding over your right arm to maintain the trap for a punch to your chin. Now here's the tricky part. Knowing me, if your block was relatively light, not crossing the center-line much (as I think it would be if you were to continue to an eye shot in one motion), my right hand would pull down into a guarding hand (vertical palm facing left), hooking your forearm in to block the eye shot. These would be at the same time, left punch / right guarding hand (don't remember the Cantonese name). This would be immediately followed with a left slapping trap (pak sao) to your left hand (grabbing the forearm) to replace the pressure from my right hand that just left, I would also try to keep pressure on your right arm at the elbow with my forewarm forcing in and down into your floating ribs to maintain the trap on your right. I mentioned the right arm just left, it went for a punch upward to the face or jab. I think I would probably go to the kenjit siko again, as I mentioned before.

Now I mentioned the tricky thing. Well, back at your block, if it was a really, really strong block, knocking my hand away from center line, I would and take your energy from your block, dropping my arm, as I left slap block (pak sao) your left arm as it comes in for the strike clearing out of the way, leading into my right arm for a back fist coming from behind and under my left arm (think of a speed bag motion).

That's what I would LIKE to do. What I would probably do, is this: As you block hard, I woudl sense the "emptiness" and do the wrong thing - left uppercut as I would in the original scenario. I think I would still attempt the right back fist with the left block, but it would rpbably be too late. I would have been nailed in the eye. I don't like that trade.

Pesilat. I really like your counter. As the punch comes in, would you say it would be prudent for me to execute a right wing block (boang sao) to counter your sliding leverage punch? Depending on the energy, I would follow by an elbow rollover to a left grab (lop sao) and right backfist , or a right lop sao and left uppercut, followed by a slapping block to the left arm and right punch as mentioned above.

Of course a counter to the lop saos would be a shoulder check and or head butt. Man, it never ends!

YES, offense is defense and defense is offense. The counter you mentioned is too close to what I do. When someone knows the way I fight, its time to change it up. A differant range or style to see what they will "give me."

When I talked about going through my opponent. I wasn't talking about "hard" blocks. I meant that I'm more at home going forward than backward. I have a better base, thus better technique. In your example of your counter and my example of the "change up," pretty much explains it.

I'm not set on one way although I do prefer some ways over others.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Mormegil
My Question:

How might some of you react or defend to this scenario:
Attacker slaps your lead hand out of the way with their rear hand and throws a simultaenous lead punch to your head. The slap is substantial and the direction is downwards and towards you, pinning your forearm to you floating ribs if done right.

If your curious, this is a Wing Chun / Jun Fan technique, called Pak Sao / Chun Choi (Jun Fan specifically, "flying Pak Sao")

How did you get your lead hand to be within range of the attacker's rear hand? What was it doing sticking all the way out there? Throwing it way out there, open yourself up to all kind of opponent's counter. A pretty disastrous position to be in.

Personally, I would never allow my attacking limbs to be sticking out there to allow this to happen. All strike is delivered as a hybrid of thrust and snap, ie, the attacking limb is withdrawn 3-5 inches behind the target, irrespective of hit or miss.

More important, my hands are mostly for defence ie parrying , and feinting. 99% of my attack would be kicks.

In counter to PS/CC, move your head out of attack line, close in with a rear elbow (swimming, horizontal or rising, depending on the situation) to the head and a barage of knees as well as more elbows and a couple of knife-hands to the neck. lol

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
How did you get your lead hand to be within range of the attacker's rear hand? What was it doing sticking all the way out there? Throwing it way out there, open yourself up to all kind of opponent's counter. A pretty disastrous position to be in.

No, its a pretty good position to be in. Footwork will put you in position to do as explained.

Its typical JKD, not "point fighting" which I think you visualized by your disription of ............."What was it doing sticking all the way out there? "

Also, you're going to use 99% kicks??????

 

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
How did you get your lead hand to be within range of the attacker's rear hand? What was it doing sticking all the way out there? Throwing it way out there, open yourself up to all kind of opponent's counter. A pretty disastrous position to be in.

To clarify a few things. I was inventing this situation in the context of my own personal experience. Most of what I do is in a relatively squarish stance. My shoulders are at about a 45 degree angle to the imaginaring "center line" (plane actually) drawn between me and my opponent.

This position isn't a static one. I wouldn't go into on guard close enough to be trapped. This would usually happen from a slightly longer range, and the opponent would shuffle forward quickly (pushing off with the rear leg, in an explosive fencing type advance), to get into range. As they slap the hand, their shoulders squared up momentarily, giving them a bit more reach.

Another way to get myself into this position, is the attacker, from long range fakes or DOES a low kick, first stepping forward with the rear foot. When they plant their lead leg, they would have advanced enough for the rear hand trap.

If he was in a traditional stance where my shoulders were parallel to the center line between us, then this wouldn't work. If I was in the traditional stance, and he wasn't, he could still trap my lead arm if he's in the 45 degree stance.


\----\

the '\' are the shoulder line of the oppoenents, and the line between is the center line.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
How did you get your lead hand to be within range of the attacker's rear hand? What was it doing sticking all the way out there? Throwing it way out there, open yourself up to all kind of opponent's counter. A pretty disastrous position to be in.

Personally, I would never allow my attacking limbs to be sticking out there to allow this to happen. All strike is delivered as a hybrid of thrust and snap, ie, the attacking limb is withdrawn 3-5 inches behind the target, irrespective of hit or miss.

More important, my hands are mostly for defence ie parrying , and feinting. 99% of my attack would be kicks.

This technique (Pak Sao) is most commonly achieved when the person is defending against a punch.

Person A punches with right hand.
Person B does a backhand parry with his right hand.
Person A closes, uses his left hand to slap B's right forearm and trap it against B's chest. Then A continues his punch.

It's not the only way it can happen, but that's the way it's commonly taught.

Another way it can happen, though, is this:

Person A punches with right hand.
Person B parries with his left hand and, using forward momentum, traps A's right forearm against A's chest while B delivers a right punch over top of the trap.

When used properly, it has nothing to do with "leaving a limb out there," though that's how it's often trained at beginning levels and people get confused. What it boils down to is timing.

Check out this article: http://www.impactacademy.com/articles/show_article.php?article=applied_trap_hands.htm

I think it does a pretty good job of explaining the principles involved in the applicaton of trap hands. Of course, I'm probably a little biased about it's quality since I wrote it But if I didn't think it was a quality article with good info, I wouldn't have it posted on my website.

In counter to PS/CC, move your head out of attack line, close in with a rear elbow (swimming, horizontal or rising, depending on the situation) to the head and a barage of knees as well as more elbows and a couple of knife-hands to the neck. lol

Well, if you're hand is trapped well, then you won't be able to easily get it out to deliver the elbow and, if it's not easy to get out, then better options need to be examined.

Mike

 

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by pesilat
This technique (Pak Sao) is most commonly achieved when the person is defending against a punch.

Person A punches with right hand.
Person B does a backhand parry with his right hand.
Person A closes, uses his left hand to slap B's right forearm and trap it against B's chest. Then A continues his punch.

It's not the only way it can happen, but that's the way it's commonly taught.

Another way it can happen, though, is this:

Person A punches with right hand.
Person B parries with his left hand and, using forward momentum, traps A's right forearm against A's chest while B delivers a right punch over top of the trap.

When used properly, it has nothing to do with "leaving a limb out there," though that's how it's often trained at beginning levels and people get confused. What it boils down to is timing.

Check out this article: http://www.impactacademy.com/articles/show_article.php?article=applied_trap_hands.htm

I think it does a pretty good job of explaining the principles involved in the applicaton of trap hands. Of course, I'm probably a little biased about it's quality since I wrote it But if I didn't think it was a quality article with good info, I wouldn't have it posted on my website.



Well, if you're hand is trapped well, then you won't be able to easily get it out to deliver the elbow and, if it's not easy to get out, then better options need to be examined.

Mike

Good points. But to be fair to his question/criticism, I asked about the "Flying Pak Sao" specifically. So no prior hand contact before the Pak sao. I look forward to the article myself.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mormegil
Good points. But to be fair to his question/criticism, I asked about the "Flying Pak Sao" specifically. So no prior hand contact before the Pak sao. I look forward to the article myself.

That's the second description I gave - unless I'm misunderstanding your term "Flying Pak Sao."

Mike

 

[Mormegil]

Yeah. I would also call Scenario B a flying pak sao.

I guess I was thinking pre-emtive pak sao. Before they even start to punch, remove the obstruction and hit. Maybe I have the terminology wrong. I'm no instructor.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by Mormegil
Yeah. I would also call Scenario B a flying pak sao.

I guess I was thinking pre-emtive pak sao. Before they even start to punch, remove the obstruction and hit. Maybe I have the terminology wrong. I'm no instructor.

Don't know if your terminology is right or wrong. I'm not an instructor in JF/JKD. I'm familiar with some of the terminology because I've been around the JF/JKD crowd for several years.

I know exactly what you're talking about. In my personal timings, it'd be a timing #2. I set the timing without a tactile reference. So the "preemptive" and the "flying" would, in my personal method, be the same timing. Only difference would be an offensive mode vs. defensive mode.

Mike

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Erkki
Actually, I assume that all attacks will be in the form of a combo. Whatever he throws, it doesn't matter. My objective is to take him out before he can fire that second technique with enough power to do any damage. How do I do that? It's called timing.

Have you fought a Muay Thai fighter before?

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by akja
No, its a pretty good position to be in. Footwork will put you in position to do as explained.

Its typical JKD, not "point fighting" which I think you visualized by your disription of ............."What was it doing sticking all the way out there? "

Also, you're going to use 99% kicks??????

No it is not a good position to be in. Footwork should have kept you from getting into that mess in the begining. Even in JKD or real fighting or sparring, you stay out of range and use footwork to attack with your longest weapon against the closest targets. Yes I know, that was Bruce Lee's words. But the truth is the truth.

Yes, I would attack with kicks any time and anywhere I possibly can. Hands are for defence, feint, intercept/destruction of limbs and finishing you off with the death blow . When you are paying attention to what my hands are doing, my kicks would torpedo you. Sneaky, huh? lol

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Mormegil
To clarify a few things. I was inventing this situation in the context of my own personal experience. Most of what I do is in a relatively squarish stance. My shoulders are at about a 45 degree angle to the imaginaring "center line" (plane actually) drawn between me and my opponent.

This position isn't a static one. I wouldn't go into on guard close enough to be trapped. This would usually happen from a slightly longer range, and the opponent would shuffle forward quickly (pushing off with the rear leg, in an explosive fencing type advance), to get into range. As they slap the hand, their shoulders squared up momentarily, giving them a bit more reach.

Another way to get myself into this position, is the attacker, from long range fakes or DOES a low kick, first stepping forward with the rear foot. When they plant their lead leg, they would have advanced enough for the rear hand trap.

If he was in a traditional stance where my shoulders were parallel to the center line between us, then this wouldn't work. If I was in the traditional stance, and he wasn't, he could still trap my lead arm if he's in the 45 degree stance.


\----\

the '\' are the shoulder line of the oppoenents, and the line between is the center line.

KICK 'em!! and KICK 'em HARD! Low kicks to the legs, follow with high kicks to the upper torso. Fast combo! Most people are not trained to deal with that. Most people think they can intercept the first attack and win the fight with their counter.