discussion of techniques

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by James Kovacich, Mar 6, 2003.

  1. Johnathan Napalm

    Johnathan Napalm Black Belt

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    Oh well, there are a million reasons not to punch that way. But this would only be argumantative. Ideally, you would not throw punches that way. But let's just suppose it happened.... B slapped A's lead hand punch. A's lead hand bended. A's lead elbow followed the momentum and aimed for B's head. Now, while you may use the word "trap", but you are just slapping A's lead hand punch, right? You are not grappling A's lead hand, right? If so, then what is stopping A from using his both elbows and knees? In fact, this is a classical Muay Thai technique when your punch is parried. In Muay Thai, you do not want to over-committ when you slap (or in Muay Thai term, sweep) away an attack. B/c if you sweep too hard and over committ, you just invite the elbow to your face. But, if I read you correctly,
    you are saying that my hands (A's hand in this case) are "trapped" . How so?
     
  2. Mormegil

    Mormegil Guest

    I thought was suppose to be a thread about how people of different backgrounds would counter different techniques.

    I think akja was hoping it wouldn't turn into "You shouldn't do that because of this!"

    But since it has...:(

    I would just like to clarify - the trap isn't at all like a Muay Thai sweep. It doesn't slap to the side - it's not a parry. It slaps inward and downward. The target is the forearm near the elbow, and you attempt to drive it down towards the floating ribs. The momentum shouldn't allow for a lead elbow, as you are making contact 1-2 inches from the elbow.
     
  3. pesilat

    pesilat 3rd Black Belt

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    Little confused. Not to punch what way? I didn't specify how the punch was thrown and it doesn't matter. The principle can be applied against virtually any punch.

    I think you're misinterpreting the term "slap." When related to "pak sao" and trapping, it's not a slapping parry (which is what I think you're envisioning).

    Yes, if I just slap the back of his fist or his forearm with no commitment, then I'll definitely eat his elbow if he has a clue.

    But that's not what I'm doing. In slo-mo, it would look like I'm connecting to his forearm, then pushing his forearm into his chest and pinning it there. At speed, it's a committed slapping motion that either (a) drives his arm into his chest or (b) "rides" his arm in as he retracts the punch.

    The trap is not indefinite. He can pull his arm out. But for a half second or so, his arm is no longer an obstacle. Trapping is, simply, "obstacle removal."

    Also, good trappers will be standing on (trapping) your lead foot as they trap your hand, too.

    But, this technique is a "classical" trap and not often encountered outside of sparring. It's used to teach a principle. The classic traps are very difficult, and sometimes impossible, to pull off in a fight (or even hard sparring). But the principles of trapping are universal.

    I think I summed this up in my previous paragraph. And, as far as the knees, well, if I'm standing on a guy's foot, it's hard for him to use that knee.

    Absolutely! But that's not at all what we're discussing with the "pak sao."

    I think I've explained this as well as I can in this medium.

    As far as a kicker keeping his opponent at long range. It's a good theory. But someone who wants to come in, will get in. I know, Muay Thai has a good infighting game, too. But if someone's infighting is better and they get past the kicks, then they'll have the advantage.

    If you don't think people can get past the kicks ... well, you need to get out more ;)

    And, kicking can't be a solution for everyone. Personally, I can kick. I can kick reasonably well. But I"m not a kicker. I don't like the long range. I can cope with it, but I don't like it. The primary reason is my eyesight. I've got poor depth perception. So at long range, I'm at a disadvantage. It's hard to deal with an incoming attack when you can't accurately guage how far away it is. So I prefer to be in close where I don't have to rely so much on eyesight and I can let my hands/arms/shoulders/head/body/hips/legs/feet do their thing by touch.

    As far as my experience with Muay Thai, I used to regularly spar with a Muay Thai player. When I met him, he was 16-0 on the amateur Muay Thai circuits in Europe. He's very good. I was able to get past his kicks and I was able to trap him and I was able to beat him on the inside range.

    Did I always win? No way. He's very good. He's also a warrior in a very real sense; he's an army infantryman attached to the 101st Airborne. He doesn't know the meaning of the words "go easy" or "give up." He cleaned my clock on occasion. But I cleaned his on occasion, too.

    Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost respect for Muay Thai and the people who train in it. Same for Kyokushin (looked at your profile). They're both good arts wth a lot to offer.

    But your responses so far in this thread have given me the impression that you've never faced someone who really understands trapping. I'm not trying to insult you, just stating the impression I'm getting.

    You are, though, familiar with the trapping principle (whether you call it that or not). The "plumb" is a form of trapping. You know how, when you get caught in a good plumb by someone who really knows what they're doing, you feel smothered? That's what fighting a good trapper feels like. You're kept off balance, your hands and feet always seem to be tied up in disadvantageous positions, you can't seem to get a solid shot fired off from anywhere, and you keep getting hit. It feels like the guy has sprouted a couple of extra limbs.

    Is it possible to counter? Of course. Everything's possible to counter. But against a good trapper, it's rough.

    I hope all of that made sense. If not, ask away and I'll try to answer your questions to the best of my ability in this medium.

    It's funny because things like this can take hundreds of posts to hash through out here. But in person, it could be answered within a few minutes because the motion can be seen and the energy of it can be felt. Ah well ... finding a good explanation for things in this medium helps improve my understanding of the material. It's all a part of training :)

    Mike
     
  4. Johnathan Napalm

    Johnathan Napalm Black Belt

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    lol, yes. On paper, it is always easy to say "if you do this, then I would do that". Of course, it is academic and totally worthless until you actually take it out to test whatever you hatch out on paper.

    And people talk about what works and doesn't work when they spar their friends. Try that in the ring with a real opponent, then I'll tip my hat off to you. lol

    As for getting past my kicks, lol, hmmm... there is no point in arguing what I can or cannot do, over an internet forum. Prove nothing.

    Yes I know people talk about trapping a kick. lol. Looks good on paper. Try that in real life, in the ring, on the street. Not against your friendly training partners. Then see how well that work. (Hint: get good dental plan. :D )

    You can say I don't know how good a trapper can be, and I can say you don't know how fast a kick can snap at your leg but ended up on your head. That is pointless. Moving on.

    (Actually I do know how good a trapper can fight. My father was rather good at it. I always lost to him when I was a kid. May be that is why I swore never to fight like a trapper ever--when I grew up. :D )

    Was it Bruce Lee who said "fighting is the art of moving"? Against a trapper or just about anyone I don't know (which is just about every attacker), I would stay out of range. As soon as he gets within range, combo attack! (combo snap kicks to his weapons first) . Yes, if I went trapping against a good trapper, I would lose. So, don't fight the way your opponent is strongest at. (Hardly original. I know)


    In regards to your confusion over "Not to punch that way", well, you ought to know that throwing a single lead punch is one of the most risky attacks. Unless you are very good at non-telegraphic attack, it is a lousy idea. It just opens yourself up for counters.
     
  5. pesilat

    pesilat 3rd Black Belt

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    Yup.

    As far as my using trapping in fights. I have. But, to my knowledge, none of the fights I've ever been in involved a Muay Thai guy, so wouldn't have worked very well for the example I was discussing ;)

    However, I have successfully used trapping in real fights.

    But, as I pointed out, the "classical" traps are just a route to learning and ingraining the principles of trapping. They aren't generally used that way when truly applied.

    Yup. But the trapper will feel the same :) He'll do his best to get past your kicks and get inside. And you'll do your best to keep him out. The person whose better at their respective job (or luckier) will have the advantage.

    Same same. To say that kicking beats trapping every time or trapping beats kicking every time is useless. Depends on the skills/luck of the kicker vs. the skills/luck of the trapper in that specific environment at that specific moment in time.

    Mike
     
  6. pesilat

    pesilat 3rd Black Belt

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    Also, just like you wouldn't try to kick if you didn't have the range, a trapper won't try to trap if the opportunity isn't there.

    Mike
     
  7. Erkki

    Erkki Guest

    What do you mean by fighting? I've sparred MT fighters numerous times, if that's what you mean. Why?
     
  8. sweeper

    sweeper Guest

    well I would consider myself a kicker, although I practice JKD. From my experience JKD is not predominantly a kicking art, it's much more upperbody, genneraly a JKD fighters goal is to be good in every range and not to have a home range, but genneraly most kicks are on the way in or as a distrction for fists, I think most often JKD fighters end up setting up a cross orahook to the jaw as quick as posable, I would guess maybe 75% punches and 25% kicks.. Diffrent perspectives from diffrent people :)

    As to the discusion, Just because things are stating off with a lead doesn't mean it's a single punch, but I don't think it matters within the context of this thred, I think this thred is largely for the discusion of how people deal with a given thret/technique/combination, and in that context we are realy looking at an optimum situation (at least a situation as interpreted by the reader) or perhaps it would be better to say a theoretic attack and a theoretic responce, like the question "how do you take a thai kick to the thigh or head/neck?" well that assumes the technique lands just the same as a trapping question assumes that the situation arises..

    Dang hopeI made sence :p
     
  9. pesilat

    pesilat 3rd Black Belt

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    Made perfect sense to me. I'd actually say that the point of this thread (and whoever started it would really be the one to answer this) was to get an idea of how people in other systems might respond to a given situation. To get a small taste of the flavors other systems have to offer.

    That's why I've tried to keep my responses very stylistic. To try to give the questioner a small taste of the style. Of course, in this medium, it's very difficult to accomplish. But I think that was the point of this thread and, overall, I think it's managed it well :)

    Mike
     
  10. James Kovacich

    James Kovacich Senior Master

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    Yes, it is a better controlling position to be in. If your outside you are positions are too "equal," I want the the edge and inside is that for me.

    And the "ring" is not a real test. You need to take of the gloves and do heavy full contact sparring in "all ranges" to prove what works and what does not work, and that is the bottom line!

    It takes time to understand how and when to trap. And when you get it, you realize it is just one tool in your toolbox. If you discount it, not a problem. There are many techniques that work everyday for many people which I choose not to use. Thats my way, as we all have our own ways.

    Also a fighters footwork is to assist you in becoming the victor in your fight. Although you can "RUN" from your oppenent, like you "SUGGESTED", but if you want to be a runner then "YOU" should be in "TRACK AND FIELD."

    Back to your kicking. Low line kicks are good but you will not fake out a JKD guy with your low line kicks. You will get a few in but there is no way that your kicks are faster than the hands. My hands are close to the target (the head), your low line target is more of a distraction (unless you get a knee or something vital).

    Muy Thai is a great art but it too, if you want to prove it in reality needs to take off the gloves and be judged on a level playing field.
     
  11. Johnathan Napalm

    Johnathan Napalm Black Belt

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    Just wanted to know if you were simply talking on paper or from experience. :)

    As I have posted earlier, most people (yours truly included) tend to over estimate one's ability to intercept and underestimate the attacker's speed in attack. If you realize how fast the kicks can come in, you would appreciate how hard it is to do something about them. LOL every time I hear or see someone talk about how to trap a kick, I LMAO. Most kickers, even the McDojo's ones are pretty damn good these days. Whatever Bruce Lee thought was cool 30 years ago, is no longer cool. Every JoeBlow and his uncle have learned to kick and hit fast and hard. Most MA today, listen to the same line of garbage their founders have passed down. They have the tendency to assume everyone in other arts would still be fighting the same way they did 30 years ago or 50 years ago or whenever.

    I know this sound treacherous, my own art, Kyokushin was the hardest Karate back then. But whatever Oyama thought was cool back then, is no longer exclusively Kyokushin. Every other art has adopted the same "stuff" that makes Kyokushin powerful.

    Therefore, ones need to examine the current state of art fighting, not "on paper, classical stuff" . Honestly, I would like to see Yilli proves itself by sending its fighters into the ring. Else, it is just on paper. Kyokushin made its mark by sending its fighters to take on all challengers. Oyama used to instruct his top students to go take on the best in a particular region where he wanted to establish a branch for Kyokushin. Even our lowly brownbelts are expected to defend the dojang against all challengers. (Damn cannon fodders! :mad: ) *sigh* Those were the ol' days.
     
  12. Johnathan Napalm

    Johnathan Napalm Black Belt

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    Sorry. Just that instinctively, a single lead punch like described, makes me sweat. lol I just could not imagine doing that without having it being a feint to set the opponent up.

    Still, due to the close range AND having being trapped, my instinct would be to use the close-range weapons, ie the elbows and the knees. I understand this is not trapping. But , "fighting has no rules", right? With your lead hand trapped and suppose your lead leg blocked, your other weapons must immediately come to the rescue. A push kick from the rear leg would open up the field again.
     
  13. Johnathan Napalm

    Johnathan Napalm Black Belt

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    Ok, you are in JKD right? Isn't the single lead punch the Single Direct Attack (if I got the term correct)? Now isn't that one of the most risky attack, second only to Attack by Drawing? Isn't it true that non-telegraphic is the key word?

    I would think prudently, you would use a lead punch as a feint.

    May be you prefer to fight within trapping range. That is fine. To each his own.

    You are right. It isn't. But it is the best we have. I suppose you could enter Sabaki challenge. No gloves, no pad. Full Contact. Still, no punching to the head and neck and no front kick to the knee. Grappling is permitted, with condition attached.

    Having said that, I still think Lumpinee Stadium is the ultimate challenge. JMO, of course.

    Yes. It is just another tool. There is no one single "killer tool" out there.

    RUNNING may not be as bad as you put it. LOL . He who runs away, lives to ......ehhhh... drink beer, eat steak, watch TV and enjoy life, than to be 6 ft under, rotting.... :D

    If you say your hand is faster than my kicks, I will have to take your words for it, since there is no way to prove one way or the other. lol

    I don't think your hands are closer to the target. Moreover, with all due respect to an instructor, I think you underestimate how fast the kicks are these days. Bruce Lee was 10 years ahead of most martial artists at the time. That was 30 years ago. So, his techniques and ideas are no longer 10 years more advance. Nowaday, most martial artists can kick extremely fast and usually throw multiple kicks to multiple targets, with only rechambering the same foot. Do no think that most martial artists are as incompetent as those Bruce Lee used to criticize back then. All the Karateka and TKD folks have learned, or uncovered on their own, JKD's concepts, and adopted many of them.

    The gloves hardly change the playing field. The other weapons are unshielded.

    There is the Sabaki Challenge, if you are interested. But this year's fight has just pasted the application deadline. Too bad. But 2004 is the one to shoot for, then. lol
     
  14. James Kovacich

    James Kovacich Senior Master

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    Yes, the trapping and clinch range is a good place for me because if you use Thai, then I'll use something else, I'll find what you don't know.

    The main reason you can't trap effectively in Thai is the gloves are in the way. Even small grappling gloves are clumsy.

    I also meant that your hands are fster than your feet and they can deliver way more strikes in a short amount of time compared to the legs. The legs are a very dangerous weapon when used in combination with "all of your tools," no one tool will win consistantly.

    It depends on which target we are talking about when we speak of which target is closer. Your hands should be "up," so that would put them pretty close to your opponents head. Your feet may be closer to your opponents legs, but the head is a more vital target unless you get something vital like a knee.

    I'm using my legs more and more. I started out in Kajukenbo, I was a kicker. But Jun Fan "fixed" my hands and I have faith in them as I do with all of my tools.

    If I was taller, my ranges would be a bit differant I'm sure.

    I have a student who I'm training that is a Thai fighter, probably could of been a pro if he wasn't into the "street" caca. Eventually he will be ready to fight in the cage fights.

    In my opinion that is a more level playing field.:D
     
  15. sweeper

    sweeper Guest

    JN where do you live that you can throw elbows in MT fights?

    also I think it's simple direct attack, not single direct attack. That is do say it's an attack you just throw at the target directly, when you lead off with it it's hard to hit with, but in that given case you don't lead off with it, you use a hand imobalisation attack (the pak sao) to pin their arm down, as soon as the arm is out of the way you nail them and continue however you think is best.

    Personaly I want to see a UFC style competition without rounds, ending when someone goes down, bare knuckle but with shoes on alowing most of the illegal strikes (head buts, small joints, etc) just leaving out the realy hash stuf like eyes and spine, that would be interesting. also would be interesting to see a fighting system on a hard surface, would bet take downs and standing grappling would be much mroe important.

    as to the thai kicks thing, most any student of JKD under a dan inosanto lineage is going to have at leaste some exposure to mauy thai, and the same goes for other lineages. It's not like people isolate them selves than claim they are the best (well I'm sure some do but most don't), and that goes for pritty much any system. And as for progresion in JKD, I agree there is some stuff that's out dated, usualy instructors compensate for this by modifying aspects of the art or add/subtracting something, problem is, because in some sence there is no single head of JKD no one realy wants to say they have changed anything, but in reality if you look at alot of JKD instructors, like alotof schools thatadd in some SE asian arts or sevate orBJJ or whatever, they are either trying to improve what they have or they are riding fads.. In genneral I think most people try to improve though.
    But for the kicking thing, there are alot of JKD instructors who also train in, fight in and/or teach Mauy Thai.
     
  16. Erkki

    Erkki Guest



    If you wait until the kick begins, you will not be able to defend against it in time. This is why Yili practices a technique called connecting. Ask Chufeng or Yiliquan1 for a description of connecting.

    When Sifu Starr had his school in Omaha he would regularly have people drop by for a challenge where his lower ranking students would defend the school. Yili students were also on the AAU tournament scene in the early 90's and did quite well. But a distinction was made: there is tournament fighting and there is 'real' fighting.
    FWIW, Sifu Starr, the founder of Yili, holds black belt rank in Kyokushin. You would probably really like Yili and should try to stop by one of our schools sometime. Where are you located? Perhaps someone is nearby.
     
  17. Johnathan Napalm

    Johnathan Napalm Black Belt

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    I was talking about authentic MT, not watered down American Kickboxing where they are more interested in defeating the Thais by taking away their weapons than in defeating Muay Thai.

    Simple Direct Attack it is then. Sorry about the mistake in JKD terminology.

    Regarding kicking, MT kicking is only one aspect and MT kicks are not as extensive in variety as what you would encounter in TKD, for example. I would not dismiss the kicking techniques from TKD. TKD has thousands of techniques. Granted most of them are there b/c they can be performed, not b/c they are of serious practical use. (lol, I am opening myself up for flame by the TKD folks) But there are serious gems in the rest of the techniques.

    If you say that the JKD folks are up to date and can prevail over kick attacks from these folks, I will have to take your words for it. No point in arguing otherwise. However, I wouldn't be that cavalier as to think any less of any other martial arts. HA! You see, Bruce Lee's concept of " Do not judge, but learn from all art" is been universally adopted (or bastardized :D ) by people outside of JKD.
     
  18. Johnathan Napalm

    Johnathan Napalm Black Belt

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    Back to techniques.

    How do you counter this attack:

    A is in orthodox, ie Nouth-Paw on guard. You are B. A initiates an attack in 3 stages. Of course, you would only see one at a time.

    1. A throws a cross ie right-hand punch. A brings his rear leg forward at the same time.

    2. As you expect to counter the punch, you discover that is a feint. (A snap that is withdrawn instantaneously)The real attack is the right leg that A was bringing forward and now is turning into a rising kick (unchamberred).

    3. As you immediately ready to check kick /stop kick that right leg from A, A brings it back , chambers it to deliver a side piecing kick to your head or chest. OR is he chamberring to deliver a roundhouse? :) Is he aiming for the ribs or the head or the solar plexus?
     
  19. Johnathan Napalm

    Johnathan Napalm Black Belt

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    I used to give instant credibility to anyone from Kyokushin. (Not that I don't give any to Sifu Starr). That was when I was young and ignorant. lol. Kyokushin used to produce first rate fighters. But like most organizations that look inward, it has gone down hill and splintered and what not. Besides, what used to make Kyokushin folks powerful, is no longer exclusively Kyokushin anymore. Almost all other arts have discovered the "secrets" independently.

    As I have stated long before my arugment with the Yili folks, that I have a mission to fulfill at this time and I am not available. (some will perceive this as a cop out. lol . But as I have stated before, I am not concerned about people's opinions. ) I definitely would love to observe Yili first hand and would be honored to train with the Yili folks.
     
  20. pesilat

    pesilat 3rd Black Belt

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    OK. But you're making some assumptions about how I (and everyone else) will try to respond to 1 & 2.

    And you're demanding that we don't see the leg coming forward with the punch.

    But, for the sake of argument, I'll play along :D None of these are "the only response" from these arts. They're just the first ones that come to mind that I think are somewhat representative of the art.

    Kali:
    Strike the back of his hand with a right backhanded knuckle rap. Maybe I connect, maybe I don't. As the kick rising kick coms in, drop my right elbow down to intercept it. Maybe I connect, maybe I don't. I don't care what he's got his leg chambered for, I'm going to step on his left foot and shove.

    Silat:
    Cut the lines with hands and feet, and disrupt his balance. Don't care that he's faking. Don't care that he's throwing the kick. I'm in his face already, have him off balance, hit him when and where I can, and take him down and out.

    Kuntao Silat:
    Drop low under the punch. Oh look, he's handing me his leg. Takedown and lock.

    Shen Chuan:
    Strike over the incoming fist (the fact that it's a feint has no bearing on this) and hit with a relaxed hand strike to Gall Bladder 14 point (I think that's the right point, just above and to the outside of the eye). My right leg is moving in to check and control his lead (left) leg. It encounters his right leg moving forward and checks it instead. I drop my body and let my right arm fall, the back of my fist rakes his face, then trenches into his body. As it moves down his body, it encounters his left hand in its "on guard" position, bounces off of it (trampoline principle) and comes back up into the underside of his chin/throat. Then my right hand catches his right hand, my left shoots under his right arm, I step under, have a nasty wrist lock on his right hand, and a balance disruption that allows me to drop him.

    Don't know how much sense any of that'll make in writing. And, as before, bear in mind that these are simply representations of stylistic answers. What I would really do would depend on the energy I felt at the time. And, maybe, I'd just end up getting clocked. Feces occurs.

    Mike123
     

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