discussion of techniques

[Disco]

Sorry if I was confusing. I will try to elaborate if I can. The attackers right hand has grabbed you and he is going to deliver a left hand punch (If you are talking about a right lead punch, then were into something different). I must preface this statement with the fact that all this happens rather quickly.

I trap his right hand/wrist with my right hand. Yes, I cross my body, but the entire movement is so quick your not in any additional trouble. My left arm is already on the outside of his right arm (were face to face). you can in fact now make an inside block with your left arm into the top portion of his right elbow. As you are doing the block, you will rotate your body to your right. you are also turning the hand/wrist clockwise (just a little turn of the wrist does a lot, it rolls the elbow into a strees position, you don't need a full wrist rotation). We like to use the term "Opening the gate". In military terms "Right Face". You are pivoting on your left foot while you swing your right leg around. You are now facing sideways to the attacker and you have actually pulled him slightly forward off balance. You are now in a position to sidekick to the knee, ankle or stomach. Depending upon the intensity of the block and rotating movement, you could snap the elbow. The aspect that makes this technique work is that you are going after two joints. The elbow and the wrist. We have tried this on many really big guys, weight lifters and body builders in training. There was no way that any of them were able to fight the move, and we did try. The pressure on the elbow was really severe. Now on some, we did have to make the blocking move a little more intense, but the outcome was the same. They all wound up in the same position. Now there is no way that this works in training going slow. Going against power to power with these guys we lose. But with the speed aspect we achieve the proper leverage. Now against the average guy in the street. Lots of pain and something may get broken or at the least hyper extended. I'll just stop right here, because from this position, your can do any number of things, whatever your personal preferance should be.

Now if I'm still confusing, try this. Just thought of this as a simpler example. Just the very basic move with no traps. Put both arms shoulder high with elbows bent. You now look like a football goal post. Now just right face and watch where your left arm contacts your partners arm. I'm sorry if this still makes no sense. The old saying a picture is worth a thousand words sure holds true. I'll attempt to see if I can get some pictures and post them. The move is so easy and so very tasteful for inducing pain

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Disco
Sorry if I was confusing. I will try to elaborate if I can. The attackers right hand has grabbed you and he is going to deliver a left hand punch (If you are talking about a right lead punch, then were into something different). I must preface this statement with the fact that all this happens rather quickly.

I trap his right hand/wrist with my right hand. Yes, I cross my body, but the entire movement is so quick your not in any additional trouble. My left arm is already on the outside of his right arm (were face to face). you can in fact now make an inside block with your left arm into the top portion of his right elbow. As you are doing the block, you will rotate your body to your right. you are also turning the hand/wrist clockwise (just a little turn of the wrist does a lot, it rolls the elbow into a strees position, you don't need a full wrist rotation). We like to use the term "Opening the gate". In military terms "Right Face". You are pivoting on your left foot while you swing your right leg around. You are now facing sideways to the attacker and you have actually pulled him slightly forward off balance. You are now in a position to sidekick to the knee, ankle or stomach. Depending upon the intensity of the block and rotating movement, you could snap the elbow. The aspect that makes this technique work is that you are going after two joints. The elbow and the wrist. We have tried this on many really big guys, weight lifters and body builders in training. There was no way that any of them were able to fight the move, and we did try. The pressure on the elbow was really severe. Now on some, we did have to make the blocking move a little more intense, but the outcome was the same. They all wound up in the same position. Now there is no way that this works in training going slow. Going against power to power with these guys we lose. But with the speed aspect we achieve the proper leverage. Now against the average guy in the street. Lots of pain and something may get broken or at the least hyper extended. I'll just stop right here, because from this position, your can do any number of things, whatever your personal preferance should be.

Now if I'm still confusing, try this. Just thought of this as a simpler example. Just the very basic move with no traps. Put both arms shoulder high with elbows bent. You now look like a football goal post. Now just right face and watch where your left arm contacts your partners arm. I'm sorry if this still makes no sense. The old saying a picture is worth a thousand words sure holds true. I'll attempt to see if I can get some pictures and post them. The move is so easy and so very tasteful for inducing pain

Thanx, buddy. I just copied it to word so that I could walk through it.

 

[James Kovacich]

Okay, heres my next technique question.

How do you defend against someone shootin' in for your legs?

I will generally sprawl my legs and go down with them but if I'm quick I like to position my two arms below their armpits, controlling their arm movement and keeping their energy going upward rather than downward.

 

[Disco]

There are two things that I like to do. The size of the attacker usaually determines the technique. For bigger attacker's I will move into them as they are coming forward and deliver a knee strike. You would be surprised what moving forward does to their timing and balance. After the knee strike, an elbow strike. Either down strike or sideways to the head.

The second technique (smaller attackers). I'll sprawl backwards, not to deep and catch the attackers shoulders. My right hand under his left shoulder and my left hand on top of his right shoulder. Push down with my left and pull up with my right. Sends them flying past you. This is a timing move that calls for some practice.

Question, have you had a chance to try the other technique we discussed?

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by akja
Okay, heres my next technique question.

How do you defend against someone shootin' in for your legs?

I will generally sprawl my legs and go down with them but if I'm quick I like to position my two arms below their armpits, controlling their arm movement and keeping their energy going upward rather than downward.

If memory serves me well, I remember Guo Ronin posted something to the effect that if you immediately take your pants off, that would have a drastic deterrence effect on further aggression.

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
If memory serves me well, I remember Guo Ronin posted something to the effect that if you immediately take your pants off, that would have a drastic deterrence effect on further aggression.

I guess that depends on what the shooter is after!:rofl:

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by akja
Okay, heres my next technique question.

How do you defend against someone shootin' in for your legs?

I will generally sprawl my legs and go down with them but if I'm quick I like to position my two arms below their armpits, controlling their arm movement and keeping their energy going upward rather than downward.

One that I really like (I got from Guru Stevan Plinck at a seminar and I hope I can do it justice in this explanation).

Angle toward one of the guy's arms, drop your weight to match his level, then use both arms to attack one of his arms and, through his arm, attack his axis. I found that this method not only did a lot to prevent the takedown, it also gave me ready access to a variety of other options like locks, strikes, and sweeps.

Mike

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by pesilat
One that I really like (I got from Guru Stevan Plinck at a seminar and I hope I can do it justice in this explanation).

Angle toward one of the guy's arms, drop your weight to match his level, then use both arms to attack one of his arms and, through his arm, attack his axis. I found that this method not only did a lot to prevent the takedown, it also gave me ready access to a variety of other options like locks, strikes, and sweeps.

Mike

I can't remember the name. But isn't that an actual takedown?

Like he jabs and you take the arm with both of your arms. One hand at the wrist and the other closer to the shoulder. And you apply the pressure betwwen his elbow and shoulder while controlling the wrist and take him down.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by akja
I can't remember the name. But isn't that an actual takedown?

Like he jabs and you take the arm with both of your arms. One hand at the wrist and the other closer to the shoulder. And you apply the pressure betwwen his elbow and shoulder while controlling the wrist and take him down.

Sure. That's one option. But not the only one

Mike

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by chufeng
...In YiLi, we also train to take a good solid shot, so if something does get through, we just shake it off...

How do you shake off a MuayThai roundhouse to your thigh? Or worse, your neck/head?

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
How do you shake off a MuayThai roundhouse to your thigh? Or worse, your neck/head?

That would depend on where I got hit on the thigh... If it hits high on the leg near my glut minimus, no worries. If it hits on the midline of the lateral aspect of the TFL (tensor fasciae latae), then I'm likely to be a hurtin' unit...

Hits to my head are usually more damaging to the person hitting me! But obviously they are a tad tough to "suck up."

I'll take your comments as legitimate ones rather than the typical "let's try to poke holes in something somebody said" comments that often follow right along after comments like we have made here...

I have taken very solid shots from Chufeng, and when ready, I have perservered... I have taken full power shots from our junior students with little concern for my own well being (they actually felt kind of nice). It can be done. I'm not saying that I'm invincible... Hope I made that clear.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Disco
There are two things that I like to do. The size of the attacker usaually determines the technique. For bigger attacker's I will move into them as they are coming forward and deliver a knee strike. You would be surprised what moving forward does to their timing and balance. After the knee strike, an elbow strike. Either down strike or sideways to the head.

The second technique (smaller attackers). I'll sprawl backwards, not to deep and catch the attackers shoulders. My right hand under his left shoulder and my left hand on top of his right shoulder. Push down with my left and pull up with my right. Sends them flying past you. This is a timing move that calls for some practice.

Question, have you had a chance to try the other technique we discussed?

Your second defense will work, its a good controlling defense but your first one, I have doubts. You will be giving him your knee, making the takedown easier. His will be low and shooting for your legs. You can knee the head, maybe with your hands controlling the back of his head but its way to dangerous.

If he's fast, the sprawl will take you to any number of various holds or submissions. One thing I don't do is use a technique that has the possibility of making their technique successful.

 

[chufeng]

I have taken very solid shots from Chufeng, and when ready, I have perservered

...and when not ready, or when "surprised," he's folded like a house of cards...
No, we aren't invincible...we can and do get hurt from time to time...again, I doubt that I'll find myself in a situation where I will ever really need to use YiLi for defense against physical attack...if I do, my appearance is an asset...(slightly overweight, graying and balding, with a noticable limp)...surprise will on my side...
A Muay Thai attack to the leg still requires INTENT...How would I personally deal with it? I'd have to be there to know...many of my defenses just happen...I don't think or anticipate the attack.

Hope that helps...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by chufeng
...and when not ready, or when "surprised," he's folded like a house of cards...

Thanks for keeping me honest...

House of cards doesn't quite illustrate quite adequately enough...

Last good solid shot I got (I remember it as a hammerfist kind of impact across my abdomen) had me down for the count for a good while... Took a nice panther fist kind of thing into the pocket of my shoulder which had me coughing in fits and unable to breathe normally for what felt like three weeks.

If I'm "in the zone," or whatever you want to call it, I can recall my opponent's strikes striking with all the force of a light rain. Just one of those things I keep working at...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by chufeng

No, we aren't invincible...we can and do get hurt from time to time...

I'd have to be there to know...many of my defenses just happen...I don't think or anticipate the attack.

Hope that helps...

:asian:
chufeng

I think thats an indicater that "you've arrived." If not yet, soon!

 

[Disco]

The first defense I mentioned, the knee, was banned from football because it worked. This was the early years of football when many things were allowed. Like anything in the arts, not every technique is fashionable for all practicioners.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Disco
The first defense I mentioned, the knee, was banned from football because it worked. This was the early years of football when many things were allowed. Like anything in the arts, not every technique is fashionable for all practicioners.

I don't discount the knee. The shooter is attacking your legs and using the knee places the knee closer to his hands.

People really underestimate how quick shooters are and how fast a takedown takes place.

A better defense strategy is to neutralize the attack first, then use an appropriate technique.

By this I mean. A shooter is attacking my legs, To neutralize the take down I might need to sprawel my legs and go down with him and work my way back to my feet.

Considering you chose a standup technique using the knee. It would make more sense to use one that mentioned earlier which is easier and will set up you knee safely.

When the shooter comes at you, his arms will try to wrap around your legs. That is your opening. He's opening his arms for you, take advantage. You position your arms under his armpits and control his arm movement preventing his takedown and keeping his energy up, opposite of what he wants.

From that position, you can use your knees or a guillitine choke or just break away and fight your fight.

There is no one answer to any technique and for differant people they will be differant as well as you stated.

But fight strategys vary based on ones physical structure and fught attributes.

My strategy. If you want my legs. I'm not going to make it easier for you. If you want to go toe to toe, I'm not going to make it easier for you. If you want to grapple. I'm not going to make it easier for you. If you want to run me over. I'm not going to make it easier for you.

We are all differant. Some can't fight like this because they hae minimal grappling exposure. You will need to practice in all ranges together and each range individually.

But if you don't. Not a problem. There are always other ways. I just minimize the effects of my attacker along with how I react to my attacker.

The same goes with a striker. A good striker will be able to it you. If you think nobody can touch you then you've already lost. If a striker is attacking me, I will use my attributes to minimize the effects of his strikes and and impose my fight on him.

 

[sweeper]

yeah I just don't have the skill to fight close up inside against another skilled infighter. If the person doesn't know what they are doing than no problem, but against anyone who has a bit of experiience I would rather put them on the deffencive first than go inside.

I actualy prefer to be in a clinch to infighting, and when things go bad in fighting I usualy look to try to stalemate the upper body through a clinch of some sort and use kicks or other means to get an edge.

When deffending against a shoot I prefer to divert their body by controling thier head and punch them, if I'm to slow than I sprawl. But if I don't see it comming I usualy end up kneeing them because I'll see the lung but not read it as a shoot so I try to stop them with a thrust kick and nail them on the way up.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by sweeper
yeah I just don't have the skill to fight close up inside against another skilled infighter. If the person doesn't know what they are doing than no problem, but against anyone who has a bit of experiience I would rather put them on the deffencive first than go inside.

I actualy prefer to be in a clinch to infighting, and when things go bad in fighting I usualy look to try to stalemate the upper body through a clinch of some sort and use kicks or other means to get an edge.

When deffending against a shoot I prefer to divert their body by controling thier head and punch them, if I'm to slow than I sprawl. But if I don't see it comming I usualy end up kneeing them because I'll see the lung but not read it as a shoot so I try to stop them with a thrust kick and nail them on the way up.

Like me, if he's a good puncher, I want to do something else also. Its natural for me to throw something else at him, like another range or style of fighting.

Training in the differant ranges makes it easy (when you have to fight a real fight) to discover what ranges they can not fight in. There are differant styles of standup fighting. fighting a boxer type, you use Gung-Fu or Thai, just differant enough that they may suufer. If its not enough, then grappling may be needed.

Today more and more people are putting more time in on the ground. Those that neglect this range are going to produce a generation of students that are lagging. They will stand by their teachings and it will happen.

When training "other" ranges as little as 20 minutes a day will help you greatly fight your fight.

As far as fighting inside with a skilled fighter, I will take a shot or two, if it means that I get a chance to find the range that he can't fight in. Also when fighting, taking a shot is always going to be minimized by your body movement.

If he can figt in all ranges, then "it's on!"

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
....I'll take your comments as legitimate ones rather than the typical "let's try to poke holes in something somebody said" comments that often follow right along after comments like we have made here...

It was asked in reference to

: Originally posted by chufeng
...In YiLi, we also train to take a good solid shot, so if something does get through, we just shake it off...

I was just wandering how EXACTLY you Yili gangs train "to take a good solid shot", of which, MT Roundhouse to the thigh, is as solid a shot as it gets and has put down many good figthers from TKD, Karate and KungFu, and what have you. Many of these challengers stepped up to the MT fighters and the MT fighters just opened up on them and DOWN their go, limping to their eventual defeat. They were totally defenseless in the barrage of roundhouse to the thighs.

So HOW EXACTLY do you train to take a good solid shot, in YiLi?