Dillman vs. TCM

[Matt Stone]

In the process of moving from Japan to Washington state, so I have been offline the past few weeks...

DKI Girl posted:

there is also that point that not everyone needs to know everything

to which I replied:

I will wait on a reply until you provide a better explanation (I don't want to run off at the mouth because of a misunderstanding...).

And then DKI Girl re-replied:

Okay....let's say I am attending a seminar given by a DKI instructor. I am moving around helping out those that need assistance and I meet someone that is rude or of questionable behavior. Further along in the seminar, the instructor does a technique that causes a KO or some other affect. I know that the instructor is using several points together because of the location or of the technique that I saw him or her use. The person that I came across earlier in the seminar comes up to me and asks questions about the technique. I then can either refer him or her to the instructor of the seminar or choose not to "tell all" about the technique because I question their attitude....

My first comment is that if we are going to, as commercially oriented instructors, "sell" our information for a meal ticket, then we have a certain ethical obligation (in my opinion) not to sell "lemons." If we sell the information, we sell all of it, or we at least inform the buyer that they are not receiving the full transmission. Failing to do so arms the buyer with the belief that he/she does possess the full transmission, and in the event they are confronted with the regrettable situation of having to use that information in defense of their own life, or worse yet they feel a need to begin teaching the information themselves, the end result is yet another woefully inadequate information base.

Bottom line, if you have someone that is questionable in their intent, don't teach them at all. If you are going to open a seminar to any Tom/Dick/Harry, you need to teach them what you claim you are teaching them. Watering it down could amount to fraud in some circumstances if you claim you will teach them the ancient secrets of the death touch, and all they get is the ancient secrets of the knockout touch... Ethically, some of these nincompoops may actually one day put their butts on the line thinking they know enough to do more than pass their wallet on to a new owner, and may end up in the E.R. getting stitched up for their troubles... If we claim to teach self-defense, and we teach our students techniques that are not fully transmitted, nor fully effective due to a lack of understanding, we have failed our students terribly.

Now, I can understand not wanting to pass certain info on to certain individuals... Exclude them entirely. It is still legally possible to restrict the attendance to such seminars. This may reduce such a need to monitor what is being taught to whom... Of course, there is that whole "don't teach this kind of information at a seminar" theory (to which I personally adhere) that will preclude the wondering of whether a person is "worthy enough" to possess the full transmission in the first place.

Just my rather untimely and late 2 yen, soon to be 2 cents...

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Now....maybe that person is having a bad day or maybe it's me that is not receiving them right.....so after I get to know that person better I would be more open to them and telling them more information if I felt they needed the info.
dki girl

I have an idea. Why don't you just put them on your ignore list like you do me. (joking)

 

[Matt Stone]

Did this thread die and nobody sent out an obitutary notice?

Still waiting for feedback.

Originally posted by DKI Girl

I like to hit with my pinky knuckle because it fits into the points so well, so therefore I usually know what points I am striking. I am human, so I do make mistakes or miss a point altogether.

While I know that there are many body surfaces that seem ill suited for striking, the use of the "pinky knuckle" causes me a bit of concern... Not too much support in that area for a strike of very significant power... How do you use it, and in what areas?

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Not all KO's are to the head either....so how do those that say it is just the head getting knocked around explain those ko's? I have seen MANY ko's with only body shots or leg shots.

Still interested in hearing your theories on how these work...

Gambarimasu.

 

[DKI Girl]

I use that knuckle very often and very effectively. I have used it to strike many different points. For me it works very well getting into the points on the guys that I work with to make my techniques more effective and more painful for them.

Depending on what type of technique you are doing, whether it be to the body, head or extremities, the body will react to protect itself from damage being done to it. Therefore, unconsciousness is one effect that can happen before the body or organ is damaged.

What is your opinion on this matter....I am curious to your views too....that's why I stick around

dki girl

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DKI Girl

I use that knuckle very often and very effectively. I have used it to strike many different points. For me it works very well getting into the points on the guys that I work with to make my techniques more effective and more painful for them.

dki girl

While you are applying this "pinky-punch" which fingers do you put strength in and which do you leave "relaxed"?

 

[Mike Clarke]

Hi dkigirl,

You know I've just come off another thread and your doing your best to defend Mr. Dillmans teachings there too.
While I commend you for standing up for what you believe in, I can't help but feel you have been duped into this situation by a businessman who could care less for your health and welfare (both physical and mental).
The martial arts are a journey into the 'self' not a trip through life in the shadow of another.
Please use some of that intuition that women are famous for (and rightly so in my book), and look again at what you are asked to believe by your teachers, and are in turn, asking others to believe.
Much of what Mr. Dillman teaches is found in other martial arts, but he has taken one step further (in the name of liberty and the American dream no doubt) and sold you and others like you a dream that can not be achieved.
I believe that in your heart you know this to be the case, you sound an intelligent person in all other respects, so I'm wondering if it is simply loyalty to your group that has you holding the flag ?
In the world of yoga (in America) right now there is an Indian guy who is ripping people off to the tune of US$5.000 to join up and become 'instructors' of his method. He heats the room up to resemble a sauna and this is his 'gimmick'. He's making a mint from his outlandish claims and yet why he does is no different than any othet yoga teacher (except for the heated rooms).
People are flocking to him, but the only outcome of all this will be the same as the outcome Mr. Dillman has made for himself, lots of money flowing into his bank balance, and people left with little or no understanding of what it was they were doing?
I've taken the time to write this because I beleive you are a serious martial artist who has been tricked into something that will leave you stranded in the long run.
I won't reply again unless you ask me a direct question, but please, try to see past the 'hype' and keep your feet firmly on the ground.

Peace and harmony to all,
Mike.

 

[DKI Girl]

Hey Mike....just one question.....

Have you ever met Mr and Mrs Dillman personally?

dkigirl

 

[Matt Stone]

What would meeting them in person do to change the fact that most reasonable people (even those who believe in qi, like me) would find it extremely difficult to believe that someone claims, all of a sudden, to be able to KO someone from a distance without laying a hand on them at all...

Why is it that this ability, like the famed and dreaded "empty force," only receive token support from the extreme fringe?

I believe in qi, but I know that it cannot be applied without physical contact.

I am with Mike on this one... If Dillman or any of the other folks that claim they can KO me without touching me at all can actually perform this trick under the conditions Mike has set forth, I will quit practicing my style of martial arts and follow them faithfully until I am able to perform the same techniques...

Gambarimasu.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Hey Mike....just one question.....

Have you ever met Mr and Mrs Dillman personally?

dkigirl

I don't know if Mike has........... but I sure have.

 

[Mike Clarke]

Hello dkigirl,

You asked me, so I'm answering.
I'm not sure what meeting Mr. Dillman and his wife would do?
It's not them I have a problem with, but some of the claims they and people like them are making.

When all the talk is done, and all the tempers and attitude has faded, the problem still remains, Mr. Dillman is telling lies about his abilities to k.o people without touching them.

As I said, I think it's great that you stand up for what you believe in. But I can only repeat the offer I've made to anyone who feels they can knock me out or kill me in the way Mr.Dillman says is possible.

As for meeting him. Perhaps he would like to take me up on the offer himself? He seems to like publicity, and l'm sure there are plenty of t.v. stations, newspapers and magazines around the world that would love to cover the event.

I have to say (and I do so out of concern for you as a fellow human being) it is not healthy to 'give' this kind of 'power' to another person. The people in Waco thought they had a good leader, as did the folks at Jonestown (?). From the inside it is often hard to see just how far one has fallen, but from a distance the depth is clear. Regardless of the outcome of this thread, I'd ask you and the other members of your group, to take care of yourselves in both body and mind and focus more on the art and not the person 'selling' it.

Best regards,
Mike.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Mike Clarke

the problem still remains, Mr. Dillman is telling lies about his abilities to k.o people without touching them.

I have seen Mr. Dillman perform his no-touch knockouts and have heard him discuss them and I do not believe he is lying. I believe that he truly believes that it works.

I also think you're overlooking the possibility of a rational explanation (hypnotism).

 

[Mike Clarke]

Okay,

So now I'm being asked to believe that Mr. Dillman (or someone else) is going to have to , or be able to, use hypnotism on me in order to get this stuff to work. Is this right? Is this the kind of stuff grown people are asking of me?????

Look, I don't want to be the one carrying the flag for those who know the world is round, I'm just putting my offer out there on the table. I see I'm not the only one prepared to do it either.
Talk is cheap, and though I believe you saw something (a knock out of sorts), I don't believe for one minute it was legitimate.
When your fooling people, as I believe Mr. Dillman is, you are never up front about the things your're doing. In this case, as in many others, seeing is not believing.

As long as there are good folk around to cary their banners, the Dillmans of this world will always be assured a good income.
This does not make them right and this does not make them good, it only makes them successful at the scam they are pulling off.

There's a lovely old American song that goes some thing like;
"Tis a gift to be simple.....tis a gift to be free."

I think people like Mr.Dillman take advantage of that.
Let's try to keep martial arts for those interested in martial arts shall we, and leave the circus tricks where they belong.

Mike.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Mike Clarke

So now I'm being asked to believe that Mr. Dillman (or someone else) is going to have to , or be able to, use hypnotism on me in order to get this stuff to work. Is this right? Is this the kind of stuff grown people are asking of me?????

You misunderstand me. I have seen Mr. Dillman and some of his senior students perform these no-touch knockouts. As I've previously stated on this board, I believe that they are 100% "social pressure" knockouts--the students drop to avoid embarrassing their instructors.

On the other hand, you've made a broad claim that something like a no-touch knockout is simply impossible--and I think that when one considers the feats of mesmerists and the amazing tricks the mind can play on the body, it's premature to rule out the possibility of a no-touch knockout. Stage hypnotists do succeed in hypnotizing people from the audience who are not their shills. I suspect that part of the explanation for Mr. Dillman's success in convincing people that these work is due to his having accidentally rediscovered certain aspects of stage magic and mesmerism. Certainly this is the case for the "moving people without touching them" trick.

I would also say that I have attended Mr. Dillman's seminars on a number of occasions and have also had opportunities to work with students of his and I do believe that he sincerely believes that these techniques work. Certainly his senior students do, and many of them are developing an interest in accupuncture; at least one has become licensed in it, I understand.

I must also say that he has other theories that are at least as bizarre, including a theory of how sounds (made orally by the karateka) significantly magnify the effects of techniques, and a theory that one should choose one's techniques based on the color shirts being worn by the karateka and his opponent (e.g., if your opponent has a red shirt on, use a technique aimed at the heart). There is also a theory that men and women should strike differently from one another--unless they're homosexual. (Yes, he said this.) Also, that some strikes should be delivered with the big toes raised and others with them grounded. So, it gets worse.

Let me be sure I'm clear. I don't believe that there are chi-based no-touch knockouts, and I believe the no-touch knockouts I've seen are due to standard psychological effects--the desire not to embarrass one's superior leading to compliance. But I do believe that what amounts to hypnotism could play a role, based on how they're done. (Have you seen a clip of one being performed? The performer and victim stand still near one another for a minute or more before it takes effect.) Hence, a blanket statement that it cannot be done--altering consciousness without contact--seems at least as unsupported and unscientific as the claim that it can be done via chi.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by arnisador

.......I must also say that he has other theories that are at least as bizarre, including a theory of how sounds (made orally by the karateka) significantly magnify the effects of techniques, and a theory that one should choose one's techniques based on the color shirts being worn by the karateka and his opponent (e.g., if your opponent has a red shirt on, use a technique aimed at the heart). There is also a theory that men and women should strike differently from one another--unless they're homosexual. (Yes, he said this.) Also, that some strikes should be delivered with the big toes raised and others with them grounded. So, it gets worse.........

How could it get even worse?

It doesn't matter if Mr. Dillman sincerely believes in his views or not. Just b/c Osama believes (or believed; he could be dead) in his crack pot theory, does not change its nature. Whatever Mr Dillman believes, he cannot defy the law of physics. He is no X-MAN and cannot emit particle beam.

I agree with your explaination for the "no-touch KO" phenomenon. It is a staged performance.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by KennethKu

I agree with your explaination for the "no-touch KO" phenomenon. It is a staged performance.

This is not exactly what I'm saying, if by this you mean a charade set up in advance to fool the spectators. I do not believe the person being knocked-out has agreed in advance to take a fall--I believe they fall to avoid embarrassing their instructor, leaving the instructor believing that it worked. It's stage magic in the sense of a hypnotist who works with regular audience members, not in the sense of a magician who works with accomplices planted there.

Again, having watched the performer and the recipient stare at one another for a minute or so for some of these knock-outs, with the performer extending a hand and the recipient intently focusing on it, I can believe that hypnotism and standard psychological/physiological effects of intense concentration, standing still for a lengthy period, the desire not to embarrass others, and of course the power of suggestion (as they're told that they will be knocked out) all can play a role. There's a scientific explanation--as there always is for a magic trick.

But I don't believe that those going out are shills who know they are fooling the public. Probably each thinks "It didn't really put me out but I'm the exception--all those other people really went out." Of course while I've had several of Mr. Dillman's senior students try and fail to knock me out, I watched one KO next to a very skeptical opthamologist who said that he was forced to concede that the recipient of a pressure-point knock out did appear to truly faint--that his reactions could not have been faked. This involved a pressure point in the head/neck region however. Most of those knocked out "faint" backwards, which is not a typical reaction.

 

[jazkiljok]

Originally posted by arnisador

This is not exactly what I'm saying, if by this you mean a charade set up in advance to fool the spectators. I do not believe the person being knocked-out has agreed in advance to take a fall--I believe they fall to avoid embarrassing their instructor, leaving the instructor believing that it worked. It's stage magic in the sense of a hypnotist who works with regular audience members, not in the sense of a magician who works with accomplices planted there.

Again, having watched the performer and the recipient stare at one another for a minute or so for some of these knock-outs, with the performer extending a hand and the recipient intently focusing on it, I can believe that hypnotism and standard psychological/physiological effects of intense concentration, standing still for a lengthy period, the desire not to embarrass others, and of course the power of suggestion (as they're told that they will be knocked out) all can play a role. There's a scientific explanation--as there always is for a magic trick.

But I don't believe that those going out are shills who know they are fooling the public. Probably each thinks "It didn't really put me out but I'm the exception--all those other people really went out." Of course while I've had several of Mr. Dillman's senior students try and fail to knock me out, I watched one KO next to a very skeptical opthamologist who said that he was forced to concede that the recipient of a pressure-point knock out did appear to truly faint--that his reactions could not have been faked. This involved a pressure point in the head/neck region however. Most of those knocked out "faint" backwards, which is not a typical reaction.

these aren't vascular, shockwave or stimulous overload ko.'s (i.e. pain too much)- and they are the only kind that have self defense application.

fainting- yes, it's one of the great mysteries that many a hardcore skeptic is also highly susceptible to the powers of suggestion (hypnotism). of course only possible under controlled environments. means nothing in the street cause it can't be applied when fists and feet are already set in motion to take your head off.


peace,



:asian:

 

[arnisador]

The current (June 2003) issue of Black Belt magazine has an article on the DKI "humane pressure points" and particularly as self-defense for rape scenarios.

Distressingly, an ad for several DKI-related instructors in the same magazine includes the use of pressure points for pleasure and in particular the link www.lovebuttons.com (which goes to the mature site www.onetouchorgasm.com).

 

[yilisifu]

One touch orgasm? Gosh, I never learned that one! No wonder my teacher was always smiling.....