Dillman vs. TCM

[DKI Girl]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1



I have done a very small amount of reading in my old acupuncture textbooks regarding the indications of the use of particular acupuncture points, and attempted to cross reference a few with the manuals I have from my teacher regarding our method of vital point striking ("spotting"). I have been not all that successful thusfar in making a corrolation between some of the points (like GB20, which was cited by DKI Girl earlier in the thread) as simple KO points... In fact, some of the points are not even indicated for use in such a manner at all, but have other effects entirely...


:asian:

I guess I just don't understand.....just because a point does one thing healing, why could it not be used in a different way with hurting.....

I am keeping an open mind here and have had no formal training in acupuncture.....Just trying to learn and expand my horizons here.

Let's go ahead and stick with GB20 and discuss that one so we have a common point to correlate with.

GB 20 when struck at a 45 degree angle up towards the opposite eye will cause disorientation or unconsciousness depending on the severity of the strike and the energy you put into it.

GB 20 for healing will benefits the head and eyes, clears the sense organs, activates the channel and alleviates pain.

I guess my interpretation is that for hurting it can cause dizziness and unfocused vision and the healing side also benefits the head and eyes.

I see this as a correlation between hurting and healing.....

Comments??? Discussion????

dki girl

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DKI Girl



I guess I just don't understand.....just because a point does one thing healing, why could it not be used in a different way with hurting.....

I am afraid there quite a few books you will need to read on accupuncture before you can truly understand that.

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Let's go ahead and stick with GB20 and discuss that one so we have a common point to correlate with.

GB 20 when struck at a 45 degree angle up towards the opposite eye will cause disorientation or unconsciousness depending on the severity of the strike and the energy you put into it.

So are you hitting with the tip of your finger? Because if you aren't you aren't really hitting GB20.
I tried to explain this before but was labeled as "arrogant". So after studying acupuncture and being licensed as well as studying tuite, kyusho/atemi longer than the head of your association doesn't qualify me as someone that knows what they are talking about I am not sure what does.

Originally posted by DKI Girl

GB 20 for healing will benefits the head and eyes, clears the sense organs, activates the channel and alleviates pain.

To say that GB20 heals those above mentioned areas is not incorrect but one has to consider other factors.

Here is an example:

Years ago I took one hell of a shot to the kidneys and later had urine the color of coca cola, this condition came and went for about 6 months and after countless tests my regular physician had no idea what the cause was.
He suggested an exploratory..........
I went to an acupuncturist that looked me over did some tertiary tests and said "No problem........takes about 2 maybe 3 visits".

To make a long story short he used ST 36 which is found just on the outside of the leg just below the knee. It is a stomach point not a kidney point, but because of the nature of my injury and the symptoms I had it was the right spot...............and not even close to where I got hit.
This is why I come down hard on folks on these boards that think they can do TCM just because they can whack someone on the neck and make them go night-night.
They have no clue as to what they are talking about.......................TCM is a whole different ball game.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DKI Girl



I guess I just don't understand.....just because a point does one thing healing, why could it not be used in a different way with hurting.....

As I mentioned on the Naihanchi thread............you aren't really hitting "1" acupuncture point most of the time. You are hitting "areas" that have points in them. Peoples hands are just too large to hit one single solitary point.

In the Naihanchi thread I asked this question:

"In your videos when you and your pals are whacking people on the neck which "kyusho" point (actually they aren't kyusho points) do you think is responsible for knocking them out or what ever it is that happens to them in your video.
To put it in terms you can relate to.................Is it LI-18, ST-5,9, or 10, TH-16?
After hitting the said point are there any long term ill effects? If so what and how would you correct such a problem?"

It was actually a trick question.The answer is you are hitting all or most of those points but that is not what makes the knockout happen.
The KO is caused by the brain being banged around just as if someone were to get punched on the chin with a good shot, and the effects of such a KO are the same.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Peoples hands are just too large to hit one single solitary point.

How about knuckles or finger strikes?

 

[Matt Stone]

I think digital strikes (and I'm not talking about those made via the internet ) are a whole 'nother animal in this conversation, and perhaps warrant their own discussion...

The strikes that seem to be used most often are open handed knife hand type strikes or knuckle strikes. I can't say that outside of my own style I have seen folks using digital strikes all that often - I know they practice them as part of their system, but I don't see them actually used all that much...

Just my perception...

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz



How about knuckles or finger strikes?

It actually depends on where and how you hit.

 

[Matt Stone]

Most points are the size of a dime or smaller... The really big ones are the size of a US quarter. So it is plain to see why there is an issue of accurately striking one single solitary point to the exclusion of points in the surrounding areas...

A point we use called "Storehouse Point," located at the intercostal space between the 3rd and 4th ribs approximately 2" off the centerline, is one of the really big ones, and is literally only about 1" in diameter...

Even using a knuckle strike, it is difficult to affect that point (although with sufficient training it does get easier over time).

I think the contention with the points located on the head and neck is that, if they are truly all acupuncture points, with strikes such as the ones demonstrated by DKI folks, there is little probability that only one point is actually being triggered, and a higher probability that two or more are being struck instead...

Just my observation, for what it is worth.

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

 

[DKI Girl]

I do alot of my strikes with the last knuckle on my fist (pinky finger knuckle)...I find that this fits in most of the points quite nicely and I can get the angle and direction that I want too.

I guess what is the big deal if I do strike more than one point at a time? So if I am going for GB 20 and hit BL 10 too and my opponent goes unconscious and I can get away....what difference does it make?

dki girl

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by DKI Girl

I do alot of my strikes with the last knuckle on my fist (pinky finger knuckle)...I find that this fits in most of the points quite nicely and I can get the angle and direction that I want too.

I guess what is the big deal if I do strike more than one point at a time? So if I am going for GB 20 and hit BL 10 too and my opponent goes unconscious and I can get away....what difference does it make?

dki girl

And there in lie RyuShiKan's arguement(I believe).
he has never said that the knock outs don't work, but has asked repeatedly, why would you attribute a KO to a certain point, ie. GB20 when quite possibly it is a combination of 2 or more points in one hit. Also, how can we attribute a certain result to pressure points when quite often it is just a result of the head getting whacked hard enough to bounce the brain around.
I am still quite new to all this pressure point stuff, I have been KO'd and I have been hit in such a way that I felt like I had been shocked, so I don't dispute the theory at all. However I think that as Mr, Rousselot has been learning this stuff (pressure point fighting) longer than most of our instructors have, surely we owe it to him to at least try and answer his questions.
:asian:
--Dave

 

[RyuShiKan]

Dave,

Part of the problem for the misunderstanding on this thread is certain folks might have me on their "ignore list" and therefore aren't able to read what I am posting...............don't, just a guess.

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Dave,

Part of the problem for the misunderstanding on this thread is certain folks might have me on their "ignore list" and therefore aren't able to read what I am posting...............don't, just a guess.

You know, I never thought of that.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Oddly enough some folks on this BBs don't like what I have to say........................go figure.

 

[DKI Girl]

Yes Dave...I do have him on my ignore list....because everytime he addresses me he is nothing but rude and condescending. I don't have to put up with that.


Anyway, there are alot of different ways to strike...we all know that....sometimes we use an open hand and sometimes a closed hand. It is a matter of style and what the person prefers to hit with.

I like to hit with my pinky knuckle because it fits into the points so well, so therefore I usually know what points I am striking. I am human, so I do make mistakes or miss a point altogether.

Not all KO's are to the head either....so how do those that say it is just the head getting knocked around explain those ko's? I have seen MANY ko's with only body shots or leg shots.

And yes, I do see alot of open hand strikes too and I know that they are hitting more than what they are telling, but there is also that point that not everyone needs to know everything. Especially in an open seminar where you may not want someone to know everything. Does that make sense??? Not sure I explained that one very well.

dkigirl

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Anyway, there are alot of different ways to strike...we all know that....sometimes we use an open hand and sometimes a closed hand. It is a matter of style and what the person prefers to hit with.

This is true. However, some strikes are more applicable to some targets or uses... Not that anybody has debated that, mind you.

I like to hit with my pinky knuckle because it fits into the points so well, so therefore I usually know what points I am striking.

Except for the fact that there is almost no support for that striking surfact to speak of, I would suspect that the soft tissue target areas you are striking are being hit with more than just that one knuckle... Soft tissue tends to collapse and form itself to the striking surface being wedged into it. Digital strikes like finger strikes, spear hands, single extended or semi-extended fingers... These are all used to target very small soft tissue (and some lighter strikes to hard surfaces) targets, and they fit due to their specific sizes. However, at least in our school, it takes at least a year's worth of training to get them ready to be used...

I am human, so I do make mistakes or miss a point altogether.

So if you make a mistake, or miss a point altogether, what results do you get? If you make a mistake and still get a KO, while it did work, what do you attribute the KO to?

Not all KO's are to the head either....so how do those that say it is just the head getting knocked around explain those ko's? I have seen MANY ko's with only body shots or leg shots.

Which again begs the question that, if the points are so small, and such large surface strikes are being used, exactly what is being struck? Single or multiple points?

And yes, I do see alot of open hand strikes too and I know that they are hitting more than what they are telling, but there is also that point that not everyone needs to know everything. Especially in an open seminar where you may not want someone to know everything. Does that make sense??? Not sure I explained that one very well.

That last paragraph could use more detailed explanation... I will wait on a reply until you provide a better explanation (I don't want to run off at the mouth because of a misunderstanding...).

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Yes Dave...I do have him on my ignore list....because everytime he addresses me he is nothing but rude and condescending. I don't have to put up with that.

The Chinese have a good saying for this: "Good medicine always tastes bad"

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Not all KO's are to the head either....so how do those that say it is just the head getting knocked around explain those ko's? I have seen MANY ko's with only body shots or leg shots.

So you obviously do read some of what I have written. I merely explained to you how the "neck whack" that you mistakenly called a kyusho knock out worked, nothing more.

I would however like to hear your theory on how and why the leg & body shots cause KO's.
Care to enlighten us?

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

I would however like to hear your theory on how and why the leg & body shots cause KO's.

Care to enlighten us?

I, too, would be interested in the theories used to explain this phenomena... I know of a few ideas, but it is always interesting to hear other perspectives for the educational value.

 

[DKI Girl]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1


Posted by DKI Girl:
quote: And yes, I do see alot of open hand strikes too and I know that they are hitting more than what they are telling, but there is also that point that not everyone needs to know everything. Especially in an open seminar where you may not want someone to know everything. Does that make sense??? Not sure I explained that one very well.

Posted by Yiliquan1:
That last paragraph could use more detailed explanation... I will wait on a reply until you provide a better explanation (I don't want to run off at the mouth because of a misunderstanding...).

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

Okay....let's say I am attending a seminar given by a DKI instructor. I am moving around helping out those that need assistance and I meet someone that is rude or of questionable behavior. Further along in the seminar, the instructor does a technique that causes a KO or some other affect. I know that the instructor is using several points together because of the location or of the technique that I saw him or her use. The person that I came across earlier in the seminar comes up to me and asks questions about the technique. I then can either refer him or her to the instructor of the seminar or choose not to "tell all" about the technique because I question their attitude....


Now....maybe that person is having a bad day or maybe it's me that is not receiving them right.....so after I get to know that person better I would be more open to them and telling them more information if I felt they needed the info.

This is a complete personal judgement for me. There are several people that I have met over the years that I feel do not need the information and I refuse to teach them until I fell they have changed enough to warrant having the information. Just like I would not give someone a loaded 45 and hand it to them butt first.

dki girl

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1



I, too, would be interested in the theories used to explain this phenomena... I know of a few ideas, but it is always interesting to hear other perspectives for the educational value.

I agree.

 

[KennethKu]

One possibility would be if you kick the guy and he falls down and bangs his head on the floor and pass out. :asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Another is if your shoe falls off and hits him in the head. :rofl: