Dillman vs. TCM

[Rob_Broad]

In the locked Nahanchi Thread, I seen a lot of animosity about the differences between TCM and rhe Dillman method. I want to know what differentiates the two so much.

I know withthe Dillman method he took alesson from Ed Parker and categorized nd organized everything. Does TCM do this.

I have heard a lot of half-assed remark about the Dillman method, and how it is ineffective, I want to see so arguements stating why this is so, so just, i study this style and this is how it shoudl be.

I would love to see some intelligent conversation on this thread, not a mudlsinging campaign. Whatevr you have to say, I would like to see it backed up.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

In the locked Nahanchi Thread, I seen a lot of animosity about the differences between TCM and rhe Dillman method. I want to know what differentiates the two so much.

I would like to know what makes Dillman people think they are the same thing......

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

I know withthe Dillman method he took alesson from Ed Parker and categorized nd organized everything. Does TCM do this.

Uhhhh sorry to ask but do you know what TCM is?

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

I have heard a lot of half-assed remark about the Dillman method, and how it is ineffective, I want to see so arguements stating why this is so, so just, i study this style and this is how it shoudl be.

Which "half assed remarks" would those be?

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

I would love to see some intelligent conversation on this thread, not a mudlsinging campaign. Whatevr you have to say, I would like to see it backed up.

Sounds good.


PS. From the tone and language choice of your post I can't help but think you are wanting some kind of flame war. (i.e. "half-assed", etc.)


If you think the Dillman Method is good, OK by me, keep at it.

 

[arnisador]

My understanding is that while TCM is the theory that underlies several kyusho/dim mak systems it isn't in and of itself martially oriented. The Dillman method and other methods rely on it but it isn't a literal application of TCM.

If anything I'd say--based on my observations but not much experience unfortunately--that the DKI techniques draw from the TCM theory to make their kyusho applications. I have heard Mr. Dillman speak of the importance of striking different points at different times of the day for maximum benefit bsed on TCM principles, for example, though if I recall correctly he doesn't advocate worrying much about this in a fight. Some of his high-ranking students have become acupuncturists because of their desire to learn more, I know (e.g. Ed Lake if memory serves).

 

[Matt Stone]

Let me preface by saying that I do not now train in DKI methods, nor have I ever trained in DKI methods. I have been trained in Chinese vital point striking methods, the particular method of which does not make significant distinction between the nature of a point - simply, there are points of various natures to be struck (i.e. bone, blood, nerve, muscle, combination (i.e. blood/bone, muscle/nerve), "forbidden" or acupuncture points), and they are struck in certain ways. They are referred to by their names, not by meridian location (i.e. ST-6, TH-13, etc.), though if a point had a meridian location associated with it, it would be noted in its training.

Originally posted by arnisador

My understanding is that while TCM is the theory that underlies several kyusho/dim mak systems it isn't in and of itself martially oriented.

No more so than TWM.

It is important to note here what TCM is and is not.

Traditional Chinese Medicine is an approach to holistic health management that is based primarily on several abstract theories that relate in allegorical (as opposed to literal) ways to the functions of the human body and its environment. Theories such as the Mother/Son Law and the Law of the Five Elements, the Zang-Fu organ relationships, and the paths of the jing luo acupuncture meridians prevail over physical, mechanical descriptions of the body's workings. TCM holds herbology (a pre-pharmaceutical method of treatment), massage, acupuncture, bone adjustment and diet to be of vital importance in maintaining the body's internal environment in order to avoid its invasion by "outside evils," external pathogens that will set up conditions that allow disease to develop.

TCM by itself has nearly nothing to do with martial arts, other than fixing what we screw up...

The Dillman method and other methods rely on it but it isn't a literal application of TCM.

The Dillman method appears to rely on it, but I believe that is the quandary at hand... As for being a literal application of TCM, that remains to be seen...

TCM, in terms of the use of acupuncture points for martial application, is a touchy subject. The ability to first identify at full combat speed a target often no larger than a US quarter, then to strike it in a manner that causes instant debilitation of the attacker, is often debated. The ability of an individual to manually stimulate an imaginary point on the body that has no corresponding physical machinery by which to effect the hoped for result of the strike further stirs debate beyond polite levels...

Then there is the issue of what defines kyusho and simple atemi strikes... Kyusho appears to refer exclusively to the striking of acupuncture points for combat use, at least in the Dillman method, though it is my understanding that kyusho relate rather to points that cause immediate lethal damage. Atemi appears to relate to "regular" striking targets, but again my understanding is that atemi are locations that, even when struck with force, continue to cause minimal damage (i.e. stunning, incapacitation, KO, etc.) as opposed to the more severe effects of kyusho.

If anything I'd say--based on my observations but not much experience unfortunately--that the DKI techniques draw from the TCM theory to make their kyusho applications.

Only insofar as the points relate to alleged acupuncture points. Many points in the method of striking I have trained in, while also lying on acupuncture point locations, are not acupuncture points at all, but locations of physiological weakness. Hence the debate between whether the DKI methods (or any popular method of vital point striking for that matter, mine included) are in fact affecting kyusho or atemi points.

I have heard Mr. Dillman speak of the importance of striking different points at different times of the day for maximum benefit bsed on TCM principles, for example, though if I recall correctly he doesn't advocate worrying much about this in a fight.

It would simply be impractical to assume that, at full speed, in a surprise encounter, that even detailed knowledge of kyusho techniques would enable an individual capable of rendering an attacker senseless. The defender would have to assess, instantly, which points were accessable, in what order, and what time of day it was at the time the attack was made. Failure to do this would make such strikes significantly less effective were they to do any damage at all...

Some of his high-ranking students have become acupuncturists because of their desire to learn more, I know (e.g. Ed Lake if memory serves).

Now that is encouraging! Perhaps through further education, the realities of this debate will come out.

Gambarimasu.

 

[Rob_Broad]

Matt

Thank you for the detailed answer. I thank you for a timely and polite response. I was not trying to start a flame war with my original post. In the locked Naihanchi thread there were a lot of answers of this is the way it has to be type of thing or cause i said said so, and no real reasonng behind them. I wanted to get a serious dialogue about the differences and similarities of the Traditional Chinese Medicine and the way in which Dillman uses the points of the body and the chi flow for defense.

The more info that can shared here the less BS we will see later.

Again thank you for your reply.

 

[DKI Girl]

Hi Rob....I know this topic can be a very touchy one...I have seen it get out of hand quite often and I hope that we can also have a discussion and not a flame war here.

I was trying to answer some questions about DKI in the Naihanchi thread and will continue to answer any questions that are asked of me in a respectful manner.

I don't want to get into an arguing match or anything here and alot of what I will say is really my own opinion on how I see things in DKI and what I understand.

I am in NO WAY an expert here and just want to continue learning, as do most martial artists. I feel that you can learn from anyone, no matter their rank or lack of it. With that said....let's begin.

DKI does often refer back to Acupuncture for information regarding points and how they work and what they will affect. There are several acupuncturists in the organization that also provide guidance to us. In using that information, we do refer to the points by location....ie St 5, TW 17, etc.....this is to benefit those that we are working with to know that we are talking about the same point.

I personally feel this makes it easier for me to learn from other instructors through the internet and email when discussing a kata and techniques and knowing that we are on the same "page". It would be very easy to get confused when asking one of the Masters a question by email (since we live in different states).

I hope I have explained this well, if not, please ask away.

dki girl

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Hi Rob....I know this topic can be a very touchy one...

HA! Death Touch... Touchy Subject... HA! :lol: :lol: I kill me... :rofl: :rofl:

DKI does often refer back to Acupuncture for information regarding points and how they work and what they will affect.

So is information regarding long term damage due to repeated striking covered in your training? Beyond just "don't hit that one any more," or something similar? I know that, at least with the non-acupuncture points (i.e. the points that are not intended to be affecting the meridians or the qi directly), the danger of damage due to repeated striking is minimal) beyond torn tissue, bruising, microscopic fractures, etc., there are few risks... However, striking even non-striking point acupuncture points causes damage to the flow of the qi in that area, and can set the individual up for varied illnesses down the road...

Attempting to make a connection between TCM and vital point striking simply by referring to the points by labels that are used in TCM does not necessarily make it of that particular brand of vital point striking that it would seem to be on the surface...

There are several acupuncturists in the organization that also provide guidance to us.

What kind of guidance? Just curious to know what benefit their TCM training is having on your striking training...

In using that information, we do refer to the points by location....ie St 5, TW 17, etc.....this is to benefit those that we are working with to know that we are talking about the same point.

It has been my own admittedly limited experience that, outside the US, and when dealing with traditionally trained TCM practitioners, that the abbreviated labels are actually not used all that frequently... It seems to be another American improvisation...

I personally feel this makes it easier for me to learn from other instructors through the internet and email when discussing a kata and techniques and knowing that we are on the same "page".[\B][\QUOTE]

While I disagree with the use of the abbreviated labels, I will admit that it makes for ease of communication - they are shorter, and there is little room for misinterpretation of the transliteration of the Chinese names. Still don't like it though...

 

[DKI Girl]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1



It has been my own admittedly limited experience that, outside the US, and when dealing with traditionally trained TCM practitioners, that the abbreviated labels are actually not used all that frequently... It seems to be another American improvisation...

While I disagree with the use of the abbreviated labels, I will admit that it makes for ease of communication - they are shorter, and there is little room for misinterpretation of the transliteration of the Chinese names. Still don't like it though...

Just because you personally odn't like something...doesn't mean that it is a bad way of learning. In my experience, it is easier for me to communicate with people in and out of DKI using point location instead of names because they are easier to remember and you can find corresponding information on several websites to refer to if you are having a long distance discussion on something.

I often have discussions with other instructors about kata interpretation and in using the location names it is much easier.

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
So is information regarding long term damage due to repeated striking covered in your training? Beyond just "don't hit that one any more," or something similar? I know that, at least with the non-acupuncture points (i.e. the points that are not intended to be affecting the meridians or the qi directly), the danger of damage due to repeated striking is minimal) beyond torn tissue, bruising, microscopic fractures, etc., there are few risks... However, striking even non-striking point acupuncture points causes damage to the flow of the qi in that area, and can set the individual up for varied illnesses down the road...

Attempting to make a connection between TCM and vital point striking simply by referring to the points by labels that are used in TCM does not necessarily make it of that particular brand of vital point striking that it would seem to be on the surface...



There has been many discussions on this topic in DKI....We are always conscious of not damaging our partners in training. Many of the "long timers"....don't want to call them "old timers" .....have been working these techniques for many years and have not found any side effects. (Granted...that does not mean there never will be.....no one knows everything)

When working on a particular point in training....we try to know what that point affects on the body...for instance....Large Intestine 13 will cause diarrehea....so therefore we always make sure if we are working that point that we "reset" the point to make sure our partner will not have any ill affects.

The acupuncturists in DKI are always providing us with guidance on techniques and also in healing.

Attempting to make a connection between TCM and vital point striking simply by referring to the points by labels that are used in TCM does not necessarily make it of that particular brand of vital point striking that it would seem to be on the surface...



Not sure what you mean.....please elaborate......

dki girl

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Just because you personally odn't like something...doesn't mean that it is a bad way of learning.

And with a quick re-read of my original post, you will note that I said:

I will admit that it makes for ease of communication - they are shorter, and there is little room for misinterpretation of the transliteration of the Chinese names.

My point being, and the reason I don't like it, is that it loses the original "flavor" of what is being taught... It is cheapened for the ease of transmission, because Americans (to a great degree, and I include myself in this) want everything to be easier. How long have skills like this been taught "the hard way," and students either learned it, or didn't? By making it easier, I think (and I stress the "I" of that) that it diminshes the accomplishment of learning it in the first place... Would you rather earn a gold medal by beating all the competition, or by having the competition all bow out... Either way you have the gold medal, but what satisfaction at having gained it do you have?

In my experience, it is easier for me to communicate with people in and out of DKI using point location instead of names because they are easier to remember and you can find corresponding information on several websites to refer to if you are having a long distance discussion on something.

True. I won't disagree that the shorthand references make it easier for communication. But folks in my school learn the long names and not the abbreviated labels, and we manage to discuss their location, effects, etc., just fine...

I often have discussions with other instructors about kata interpretation and in using the location names it is much easier.

See last reply above...

There has been many discussions on this topic in DKI....We are always conscious of not damaging our partners in training. Many of the "long timers"....don't want to call them "old timers" .....have been working these techniques for many years and have not found any side effects. (Granted...that does not mean there never will be.....no one knows everything)

And this leads me to believe that you are not striking acupuncture points, but are affecting the body by striking other points that happen to be co-located at the same sites as acupuncture points... When I first started Iron Palm training (I think I have told this story elsewhere), I neglected the restorative qigong exercises that are intended to repair the damage done to the meridians ending in the hands in order to prevent the onset of illness. I neglected these exercises for only about 2 weeks. During that two weeks, I was performing striking drills on sandbags and other objects to the tune of about 200 - 400 strikes per day... After that two weeks, I began having the worst case of recurring, explosive diarrhea you can imagine... I called my best friend (who was senior to me and had already been doing the training for quite a while), and upon hearing of my symptoms immediately replied with "You aren't doing the qigong, are you?"

My point?

Repeated striking may not cause any immediate effects, and my story is an example of extreme reactions. However, after doing vital point striking training (we just call it "spotting") on some acupuncture points, I have evidenced nausea, headaches (not related to points on the head), etc., after only a short period of training...

When working on a particular point in training....we try to know what that point affects on the body...for instance....Large Intestine 13 will cause diarrehea....so therefore we always make sure if we are working that point that we "reset" the point to make sure our partner will not have any ill affects.

Not sure how you "reset" a point after it is damaged... My TCM skills are rudimentary at best, and restricted mainly to basic diagnosis and theoretical study. However, it is my understanding that when points have been damaged, and excesses or deficiencies in the flow of qi have been created, "first aid" may be given (but usually takes the form of some kind of massage or herbal preparations)... Maybe that is what you are talking about...?

The acupuncturists in DKI are always providing us with guidance on techniques and also in healing.

That is a great thing... But I wonder (and not in order to question their qualifications, but to better educate myself on their background) where they were trained? Having been a certified and school trained massage therapist, and having worked in conjunction with some doctors and chiropractors, I have found that much of the acupuncture knowledge that chiropractors have comes from weekend seminars that do little to teach diagnostic theory, and only teach "attach electrode #1 to XXX point, and #2 to YYY point, then turn machine switch to "on"."

Just making inquiring comments, not accusatory ones...

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Attempting to make a connection between TCM and vital point striking simply by referring to the points by labels that are used in TCM does not necessarily make it of that particular brand of vital point striking that it would seem to be on the surface...

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Not sure what you mean.....please elaborate......

dki girl

If a person makes claims that they are striking acupuncture points to effect the energy flow of the body, then people will view that skill in one fashion.

If a person is really only striking places that are vulnerable and coincidentally located on or near acupuncture points, that is something else entirely.

The first example is viewed as a semi-mystical skill, existing only in legends, fairytales, and kung fu movies from Hong Kong. The second example is only what any good MA school should be teaching in the first place...

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

 

[Rob_Broad]

From my little DKI exposure I do know that there are 3 types of points; Touch, Rub & Strike. All have their own specific applications and angles for use. I remember after each exercise we did some restoration to the body and points. I personally like the categorizing and cataloging of the points, such as Heart, Lung, Liver etc this puts them into a context that as an english speaking North American I can understand. The freer the communication and the more readily it is understood the better, is the way I look at it. The long flowery names have a purpose, but they are not essential. They were part of a process of linking things for ready understanding and for mystical effect. That is a great part of history, but that is not how I to learn.

I think the information that DKI Girl si tyring to share with us is very valuable and I am thankful she is willing to share.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

From my little DKI exposure I do know that there are 3 types of points; Touch, Rub & Strike.

In Yiliquan, we have 4 categories - Stunning and Painful, Temporarily Disabling, Killing and Crippling and "Forbidden." We categorize by effect rather than method of striking.

All have their own specific applications and angles for use.

As do all points... some are struck perpendicularly to the striking surface, some at any angle, some at specific angles.

I remember after each exercise we did some restoration to the body and points.

Definitely a good idea... Explosive diarrhea is most *ahem* unattractive... :lol:

I personally like the categorizing and cataloging of the points, such as Heart, Lung, Liver etc this puts them into a context that as an english speaking North American I can understand. The freer the communication and the more readily it is understood the better, is the way I look at it.

First, the meridians and acupuncture points have always been categorized according to the organ relationships. My point is that not all points that are alleged to be acupuncture points are, in fact, acupuncture points that are being struck, but rather a vulnerable strike target that happens to be co-located at the acupuncture point area... This begins to be misleading, when the student believes they are striking the acupuncture point, when in reality they are not... Thus, knowing what point you really are striking becomes a bit more important... You may think you are striking an acu-point, but not, and then when you need to fix what you have "broken," the diagnosis may be incorrect since the damage was alleged to have been caused by meridian interference and damage, but in actuality was caused by something else entirely...

The long flowery names have a purpose, but they are not essential. They were part of a process of linking things for ready understanding and for mystical effect. That is a great part of history, but that is not how I to learn.

Perhaps not essential, but correct nonetheless... And I learned them in North American English (though I know the Chinese names for many of them as well), so it wasn't that hard to learn them in the first place...

I think the information that DKI Girl si tyring to share with us is very valuable and I am thankful she is willing to share.

I do, too. She is providing good information on an otherwise unpopular subject (i.e. the claims against DKI, the questions for DKI, and the contradictory claims of other groups against DKI).

Thanks for sharing with and educating us all...

:asian:

 

[DKI Girl]

Hey guys...thanks for the good discussion...This so far has been a very nice and polite topic and hasn't gotten off track so far.

I will always share what I can with people. Of course, I may be wrong, misinformed or just don't know about some topics, but that is part of learning. If I didn't want to learn, then I wouldn't be here talking to you all.

Anyways.....Rob brought up the way DKI classifies points. Touch, Rub, or Strike. We do classify them by how they are acitivated rather than what their effect is. That is very interesting.

Yiliquan....I am curious....what type of point is GB 20....we classify it as a strike point.....do you consider it disabling? Just trying to make the connection in my mind on how they are classified for you. So we can be on the same page.....

Usually to "restore" the points that we are working on, we massage them in the direction of the energy flow in the meridian.


I think it is easier for those of us that have difficulty learning foreign languages to use the location of the point rather than the name....I know for me it is MUCH easier.

I always try to work with the points and TRY not to hit anything that I am not specifically aiming for, but once you get on the move it can be more of a general area with intent towards a specific target. I know that it still works for me....when I am teaching a technique then I always explain what I am intending to strike and then go from there.....I do miss the point too.....still practicing my techniques and learning new ones that work better for me too. I often will try one thing, but it will lead me on to another that works better for me because I am a female. Always adapting and learning!!

dki girl

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by DKI Girl

but it will lead me on to another that works better for me because I am a female.

I heard Mr. Dillman speak about women vs. men striking open/close dhand, left/right side, toes up/toes down. Have you found this to be the case--that there is a difference?

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

In Yiliquan, we have 4 categories - Stunning and Painful, Temporarily Disabling, Killing and Crippling and "Forbidden." We categorize by effect rather than method of striking.

??? You have a category beyond "Killing" that is "Forbidden"? Man, that's one tough art! Assuming it doesn't mean going after their families too, what type of point would be "Forbidden"?

 

[chufeng]

In YiLiQuan, the points other than the forbidden points have an immediate effect...they are generally not found at acupuncture points (although some are)

Killing and crippling points have an immediate effect...
That is, the opponent falls down right in front of you...
Forbidden points have a delayed effect, they may be lethal or just a nuisance to the opponent, usually within 72 hours...they ARE acupuncture points.

I hesitate to say more...
They are, afterall, forbidden...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[fissure]

I must say that I find this topic very interesting.I have no experience with 'pressure'( don't even know if this is the correct term!) points, outside of the most basic.I hope those of you with knowledge will give us a little more info.:asian:

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Usually to "restore" the points that we are working on, we massage them in the direction of the energy flow in the meridian.

Not necessarily a good idea since you just might be "draining" the point making the condition worse. Especially since most hits to points are already "draining" in nature.

Originally posted by DKI Girl

I think it is easier for those of us that have difficulty learning foreign languages to use the location of the point rather than the name....I know for me it is MUCH easier.

The Chinese didn't sit down and think up all the names for points because their cable TV was on the blink and had nothing better to do. There are distinct reasons for each name that often lead to greater insight into what the point does or controls.
GB 20 is a great example.



As long as we are on the subject can you tell us what possible effects on the body hitting GB 20 would have?

 

[DKI Girl]

Originally posted by arnisador



I heard Mr. Dillman speak about women vs. men striking open/close dhand, left/right side, toes up/toes down. Have you found this to be the case--that there is a difference?

Sometimes it does make a difference for me. We have not been working on this theory for long and have not worked it out yet. At many of the seminars and camps that I go to we are always trying something different to work on that theory....but it is going to take some time to figure it out.

We have worked on some that it really makes a difference and some that it doesn't change the affect at all.....so I guess right now we are at about 50%.

I can let you know as we progress or regress on the subject of women vs. men striking.

dki girl

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan



Not necessarily a good idea since you just might be "draining" the point making the condition worse. Especially since most hits to points are already "draining" in nature.
...
The Chinese didn't sit down and think up all the names for points because their cable TV was on the blink and had nothing better to do. There are distinct reasons for each name that often lead to greater insight into what the point does or controls.
GB 20 is a great example.
...
As long as we are on the subject can you tell us what possible effects on the body hitting GB 20 would have?

Couple of questions:
Can someone define 'draining' for those of us who aren't familiar with the concepts here.

Would someone be kind enough to post a comparision of a 'chinese' name and 1 of the abreviated ones?

Wheres GB20 located?

On a related note, is theer a good (reliable) source online for a map of these points?

Thank you. :asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Hey guys...thanks for the good discussion...This so far has been a very nice and polite topic and hasn't gotten off track so far.

It is possible to keep a steady head when discussing such things, but it is always dangerous discussing issues that are so dear to people's hearts... MA is a unique environment, and when someone has put their heart and soul into learning a style that is shown to them to be incorrect, inaccurate, fraudulent, etc., they sometimes react in unseemly ways... There is an individual I am acquainted with that practices an art that is highly suspect in its legitimacy and heritage. He firmly believes it to be the "real deal," and I know that were I to demonstrate to him the fatal flaws inherent in his training, he would cling that much more tightly to it... He is, after all, a grand master now... Though of what no one seems to be sure.

I will always share what I can with people. Of course, I may be wrong, misinformed or just don't know about some topics, but that is part of learning. If I didn't want to learn, then I wouldn't be here talking to you all.

One thing I have found to be incredibly true is the usefulness of discussion forums like this one... I have found that training in other arts has opened my eyes to new perspectives on my main art, and talking with people from even more arts has allowed me to tap into a resource that answers some questions and creates even more...

Yiliquan....I am curious....what type of point is GB 20....we classify it as a strike point.....do you consider it disabling? Just trying to make the connection in my mind on how they are classified for you. So we can be on the same page.....

Well, I had to do a little research to find the point in question - again, we don't label them by the shorthand TCM method, but by their names (another point here - our method of spotting uses the name of acu-points if they are acu-points, but if they just happen to be coincidentally located at the same location of an acu-point, they may have a different name...). We call that point "Falling Point," and its proper acupuncture name is fengchi (meaning "wind pond;" thanks to the person that gave me the translation - you know who you are! )

As this is a public forum, I will not detail the point's uses. There are several methods of employing that point, and I would strongly caution against its use in training with anything other than the lightest contact...

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Usually to "restore" the points that we are working on, we massage them in the direction of the energy flow in the meridian.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Not necessarily a good idea since you just might be "draining" the point making the condition worse. Especially since most hits to points are already "draining" in nature.

This is one of the detailed points that makes me think that perhaps the method of spotting used by DKI is not in actuality based on TCM any more than using points that are coincidentally acu-points... In dim mak/tian hsueh training, knowing the direction of the flow of the qi is vital in studying certain points, and it is often the change in the flow of the energy that causes the desired effects... This change in the flow is often extremely dangerous, and the danger may not evidence itself until some time later, as the gradual damage done to the meridian over time is what leads to subsequent illness and sometimes death... :uhohh:

I think it is easier for those of us that have difficulty learning foreign languages to use the location of the point rather than the name....I know for me it is MUCH easier.

I agree that it does make the task of learning to reference the points easier, but as RyuShiKan pointed out:

There are distinct reasons for each name that often lead to greater insight into what the point does or controls.

And this is the most important argument I can think of to encourage others to explore beyond the shorthand and learn the real names (they don't have to be in Chinese - they have been translated into English, you just have to find the right books...).

I always try to work with the points and TRY not to hit anything that I am not specifically aiming for, but once you get on the move it can be more of a general area with intent towards a specific target.

This was the argument that RyuShiKan pointed out in the Naihanchi thread... That practicing to strike at points on a cooperative partner at a standstill was significantly different than trying to strike points on a moving target. There was the additional argument that, with points often being no larger than a US quarter dollar coin (and those are the big ones!), often while one specific point is being targetted, it may well be that multiple points are being struck, resulting in completely different results than what were anticipated... In Yili, we will begin with static practice, but very quickly move into practicing on moving partners... There is also a great degree of additional training put into developing accuracy with the striking weapon(s), proper conditioning of the weapon(s), etc., to allow for the point to be struck accurately in the first place.

I know that it still works for me....when I am teaching a technique then I always explain what I am intending to strike and then go from there.....I do miss the point too.....still practicing my techniques and learning new ones that work better for me too. I often will try one thing, but it will lead me on to another that works better for me because I am a female. Always adapting and learning!!

As are we all...

Gambarimasu.

:asian: