Different flavor between Judo and Chinese wrestling (SC)

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Kung Fu Wang, Mar 11, 2019.

  1. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    The Judo and Chinese wrestling (SC) do have different "flavors". Any comment?

    Judo:



    SC:




     
  2. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I agree that Judo and Shuai Jiao (and BJJ and Sambo and Glima and Greco-Roman etc) have different flavors, even when doing the same technique.

    I should point out, however, that the first clip was an exaggerated exercise meant to teach a concept rather than a strictly accurate portrayal of actual execution in competition.
     
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  3. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    In Judo,

    - If your opponent grabs on your upper collar, is it legal for you to drop your elbow on top of his grab in order to break that grab?
    - If your opponent wraps his arm around your waist (for hip throw), is it legal for you to use your arm to crack on his elbow joint?
    - Do you allow to punch on your opponent's arm, or shoulder with full force?
    - How much effort do you spend to break your opponent's grip/grips?
    - Is there a concept that you should never let your opponent to feel comfortable on his grips?
    - Do you shake your opponent and give him some headache?
    - ...
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
  4. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Not sure. Probably depends on how it's done.

    Not sure. Probably depends on how it's done.

    If you're gripping the jacket, you can sort of punch through the jacket with your gripping hand, but regular punches are not allowed.

    Quite a bit.

    Yes.

    Yes. I had an old training partner that I kind of hated sparring with because he would constantly shake me so hard it felt like getting repeatedly punched in the back of the neck.
     
  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    For several of these, it will depend whether the judge sees it as a strike. Strikes are not allowed (none that I can think of, anyway). But if it is seen as a hard pushing motion, it's probably acceptable in most cases. There's definitely some grey area between those.
     
  6. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    You've brought up a ton of times that judo doesn't focus on grip game/fighting for grip. Each time you've been told that it does. Why is there a mental block for you here?
     
  7. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    I can only speak from my personal experience. I have wrestled with many Judo guys in the past. As far as I remember, they didn't spend much effort to break my grips.

    When I discussed grip fight in another Judo forum, people will say, "Unless you want to compete in Olympic level, otherwise you should not spend too much effort in grip fight."

    I have never seen this move "tearing" used in any Judo tournament. Can you find any Judo clip to prove I'm wrong?

     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2019
  8. paitingman

    paitingman Blue Belt

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  9. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I haven't seen that specific technique, but grip fighting does exist in Judo, as do similar tearing techniques. Sometimes they won't bother to fight against a grip, because they plan to use it to their advantage. Or, sometimes, because they're waiting to see what you do with it.
     
  10. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Do you have any clip to show how does a Judo guy break apart his opponent's grip?
    That is the defensive strategy - waiting to see what you are going to do with it.

    The offensive strategy is:

    - You have 2 grips on your opponent but your opponent only has 1 grip on you.
    - You have 1 grip on your opponent but your opponent has no grip on you.

    In order to apply the offensive strategy, you do need to break apart your opponent's grip/grips. Most of the time the moment that you break apart your opponent's grip, he immediately grabs back. So you may have to keep breaking over and over. Since the window can be very small, you have to move in quickly.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    A very quick YouTube search for "Judo grip fighting", then clicking on the first returned result, gets this:


    I meant they were literally wanting to see what the guy from SC would do with it - they were curious about what the attack would be, so they were giving an opportunity to attack. I've done this when playing with someone I've not worked with before - just allow some offense to see what the approach is. It's counter to fighting and competition strategy in that case, but just normal curiosity. Though it's also true that sometimes folks will allow that incoming offense to see if it presents an opening to counter from. That comes from the same concept as pushing to get them to push back, except you don't have to give the initial push - you just wait for them to give you something easier to work with. I can see where some folks might define that as a defensive approach - I think of it more like counter-punching, which I wouldn't call a defensive approach. It's not centered around stopping their attack, but around using the opening it creates (which is often bigger than the opening they give when they push back against your push).
     
  12. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Maybe it's something to do with the difference in the jackets, but I don't see that particular grip break as being too effective wile wearing a judogi. Here's a little sampling of the grip fighting and grip breaking methods available in Judo:



     
  13. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Here are some more:


     
  14. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    That grip break method doesn't work for me. Does it work for you?
     
  15. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I’ve used it many times.

    One key element that he may not discuss in the video is the importance of correct distance. If you are too close to your opponent then his grip will likely be too strong to strip off this way. You need to get his arm somewhat extended to begin with and back off further as you break the grip.
     
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  16. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Both SC jacket and Judo jack all have "lapel". As long as there is a "lapel", that tearing method will always work.

    The tearing method use your:

    - leg to move back and turn your body side way.
    - palm ridge to cut into his wrist.
    - striking push to punch on his shoulder.
    - whole body weight to fight against your opponent's fingers.

    By combining all those 4 forces, you can achieve the maximum amount of "tear" power.
     
  17. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    I only use it to break the front belt hold because I can slide back my feet and move back my waist to generate the maximum amount of power. Even that, if my opponent has monster grip, it's still hard to break that grip. I have to use my arm to strike on his elbow joint instead. In one tournament when I did that, all the audience started to yell at me as if I had used illegal move. For front belt hold (I hate that hold), it's legal to use your arm to strike on your opponent's elbow joint in SC tournament. Not sure it's legal in Judo or not.

     
  18. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I'll give it a try next time I have a chance. Note - in the video it looks like you are just grabbing his shoulder and stiff arming it away as you do the break. There's no real ballistic punch apparent. Is creating a hard impact on the shoulder a necessary part of the technique?
     
  19. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah, a solid grip on the belt by someone with serious grip strength is going to be hard to break. Striking the elbow joint is not legal in Judo competition.
     
  20. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    The "striking push" and "tearing" can be used separately or together. Sometime you can use tearing (step back), sometime you can use striking push (step forward), sometime you can use both together.

    Here is a clip for "striking push". Please notice that he steps in.

     

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