Bassai Dai - Martial Arts Rosetta Stone

[mrt2]

I came across this link showing three different ways to do Bassai, and I said to myself, what about Tang Soo Do? Then I was discussing it with my TKD teacher and he told me when he started training with his father, they used to practice Bassai. I asked if he would consider putting it back in the curicullum, and he said he might.

 

[dvcochran]

Great video comparison. Curious @mrt2 , how similar is the TSD variant you learned? We do in in our TKD school but there are differences. Coming from our Moo Duk Kwan heritage I wonder how similar we are in form.

 

[Prostar]

What I always refer to as, "The same thing, only different".

 

[TSDTexan]

 

[VPT]

Funny of you to pick up those exact versions of Bassai, since they are all the same Itosu version, I think. There are many differing forms of Bassai around in Karate coming from several different transmissions, which actually have differing sequences besides their style in execution.

Why are you calling it a "Rosetta Stone", by the way?

 

[mrt2]

Great video comparison. Curious @mrt2 , how similar is the TSD variant you learned? We do in in our TKD school but there are differences. Coming from our Moo Duk Kwan heritage I wonder how similar we are in form.

It has been a long time, but the Bassai I remember looks something like this.

 

[mrt2]

Funny of you to pick up those exact versions of Bassai, since they are all the same Itosu version, I think. There are many differing forms of Bassai around in Karate coming from several different transmissions, which actually have differing sequences besides their style in execution.

Why are you calling it a "Rosetta Stone", by the way?

Are you familiar with the Rosetta Stone?

From a short Wiki article.

"The Rosetta Stone is a granodiorite stele, found in 1799, inscribed with three versions of a decree issued at Memphis, Egypt, in 196 BC during the Ptolemaic dynasty on behalf of King Ptolemy V. The top and middle texts are in Ancient Egyptian using hieroglyphic script and Demotic script, respectively, while the bottom is in Ancient Greek. As the decree has only minor differences between the three versions, the Rosetta Stone proved to be the key to deciphering Egyptian hieroglyphs, thereby opening a window into ancient Egyptian history."

Maybe I should have phrased it as a question.

 

[dvcochran]

It has been a long time, but the Bassai I remember looks something like this.

That is very close. We do the Jhoon bi slightly different and the two quick outside blocks at the end do not include the high block.

 

[VPT]

Are you familiar with the Rosetta Stone?

Yes, I am familiar with it, that's why the metaphor feels forced to me.

We can postulate that there has been a single, original form of Bassai/Passai; a kind of Ur-Passai, if you will. However, the differences in execution of those three styles that are in the OP are close to negligible, because they are interpreting the sequence of the same clearly identifiable transmission of the form, namely that of Matsumura to Itosu. The transmission from Itosu to Funakoshi (Shotokan) and Mabuni (Shito-ryu) and eventually Ohtsuka (Wado-ryu, via both Funakoshi and Itosu) is very well documented.

More Rosetta Stone-ish would have been to compare, say, the Matsumura, Matsumora ad Tachimura versions that are clearly the same form but have significant differences in both execution and details. Another more sensible option would have been to put Tawada, Ishimine and Itosu versions side by side as they are versions of the slightly more ancient Passai of Matsumura himself.

 

[JR 137]

Are you familiar with the Rosetta Stone?

From a short Wiki article.

"The Rosetta Stone is a granodiorite stele, found in 1799, inscribed with three versions of a decree issued at Memphis, Egypt, in 196 BC during the Ptolemaic dynasty on behalf of King Ptolemy V. The top and middle texts are in Ancient Egyptian using hieroglyphic script and Demotic script, respectively, while the bottom is in Ancient Greek. As the decree has only minor differences between the three versions, the Rosetta Stone proved to be the key to deciphering Egyptian hieroglyphs, thereby opening a window into ancient Egyptian history."

Maybe I should have phrased it as a question.

The Rosetta Stone translated an unknown written language into a well known one. We now know what ancient Egyptian text means because of it.

If we’re comparing a video to the Rosetta Stone, shouldn’t it be someone performing the kata on one side, and someone like the creator of the kata or one of his disciples demonstrating the true meaning of each movement on the other side?

 

[mrt2]

The Rosetta Stone translated an unknown written language into a well known one. We now know what ancient Egyptian text means because of it.

If we’re comparing a video to the Rosetta Stone, shouldn’t it be someone performing the kata on one side, and someone like the creator of the kata or one of his disciples demonstrating the true meaning of each movement on the other side?

Right. And when I watch a practitioner of Korean martial arts like Tang Soo Do practice Bassai, I see familiar blocks, kicks, stances. Watching Karate practitioners do the same form gives me a little insight into the similarities between something familiar to me, and something unfamiliar, like Wado Ryu.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Nice video, thank you. Isshinryu doesn't have this kata, yet I see some elements of it in the kata we do have. Neat!

 

[mrt2]

Nice video, thank you. Isshinryu doesn't have this kata, yet I see some elements of it in the kata we do have. Neat!

Nor does ITF Tae Kwon Do officially practice Bassai, yet I see this form (and the Pinans) sprinkled throughout the ITF patterns.

 

[dvcochran]

Yes, I am familiar with it, that's why the metaphor feels forced to me.

We can postulate that there has been a single, original form of Bassai/Passai; a kind of Ur-Passai, if you will. However, the differences in execution of those three styles that are in the OP are close to negligible, because they are interpreting the sequence of the same clearly identifiable transmission of the form, namely that of Matsumura to Itosu. The transmission from Itosu to Funakoshi (Shotokan) and Mabuni (Shito-ryu) and eventually Ohtsuka (Wado-ryu, via both Funakoshi and Itosu) is very well documented.

More Rosetta Stone-ish would have been to compare, say, the Matsumura, Matsumora ad Tachimura versions that are clearly the same form but have significant differences in both execution and details. Another more sensible option would have been to put Tawada, Ishimine and Itosu versions side by side as they are versions of the slightly more ancient Passai of Matsumura himself.

I would love to see these comparisons here on the forum if you are able to do this.

 

[JR 137]

Right. And when I watch a practitioner of Korean martial arts like Tang Soo Do practice Bassai, I see familiar blocks, kicks, stances. Watching Karate practitioners do the same form gives me a little insight into the similarities between something familiar to me, and something unfamiliar, like Wado Ryu.

I see what you’re getting at now. Makes sense.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Amazingly similar to each other. In fact, more similar to each other than the some branches of Isshinryu are to each other (unfortunately in my opinion). I think it shows the force Itosu Anko had in karate history and the respect he fostered for the tradition amongst his, and Funakoshi Gichin's, students.

 

[_Simon_]

That vid was SO cool to watch. Love Bassai Dai

In my first style I learnt it the Shotokan way, only few differences, moves 34-37 had more of a crescent kick (soto mawashi geri) style move before the step forward.

Really enjoyed watching that

 

[KenpoMaster805]

When i was in shotokan i love bassai dai we practice it i was only high orange but i know it now i forgot

 

[_Simon_]

Another interesting and similar comparison vid:

 

[dvcochran]

Another interesting and similar comparison vid:

Great video. I love how I can see qualities from both styles in the way we practice the form.