Defending against a dog

[KenpoTess]

We have a 80 plus pound black lab who loves to roughhouse. Those jaws are strong and fast, as are her legs~!
This got me to thinking, (yeah I know dangerous past time

If you are out somewhere, and attacked by a big feral dog, (The animal is snarling, and you have no idea if it has contracted rabies, distemper etc)

How would you handle this, Kenpo-wise? (for other MA's.. how about you?)

I'm looking for some scenarios here, Not just big guys kicking the teeth down the animals throat.


Tess

 

[Touch Of Death]

Well, my game plan is simply this... Turn and face the dog in a horse stance with your hands up. Yell "no" and "go home". Luckily this has worked most of the time for me. If the dog refuses to back down, I understand that by facing off with the dog, it will force tha dog to go for your throat. At this time, god willing, you are supposed to grab the dog by the jowls and thrust your knee up through the chest cavity. From what I understand the dog should not survive the incident. I don't really want to find out.

 

[jeffkyle]

Whatever it takes to A) Get away from the dog; B) Win the fight if there has to be one; C) Hope there are no rabies or other diseases that are involved...if so and I can win the fight; D) Run my butt to the doctor as fast as I can.

 

[headkick]

First off, never turn and run from a large dog. That's an invitation to attack. You're also supposed to turn sidways to it, like a good neutral bow or even a fighting horse. Don't look it the eye. Making eye contact, squaring up to it, supposedly that's a challenge. Back off slowly, no quick movements. There are people out there who teach this stuff in elementary schools because kids are more likely to get attacked. Failing that, the technique "Center Mass" using a 9mm is always a good one.

 

[MisterMike]

There is some information out there on dealing with stray/aggressive animals. There are ways to try to walk away and not provoke it.

But should it attack, my preference would be the famed kick to the chops if I could get it in there. The difference between a sick dog and human, other than the obvious anatomical ones, are its skill at biting but also its lack of skill at punching, grabbing and kicking.

A kick/punch to the head of a dog might mean getting bit, but not so as with a human. So you have to be careful at what you do throw out there and commit to. I've been in a few situations with an agressive dog, but I usually used something in my surroundings to keep it from me.(My bike or large stick or both )

I once cracked a large dog over the head a couple years ago with a small log from the sie of the road. Broke it right over his head! An rightly so, as I did fear for my safety and my little brother-in-law's.

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by MisterMike
I once cracked a large dog over the head a couple years ago with a small log from the sie of the road. Broke it right over his head! An rightly so, as I did fear for my safety and my little brother-in-law's.

That was probably the first time that dog experienced Irony! Or poetic justice!

 

[satans.barber]

I once read that if a dog gets on top of you, you're supposed to take hold of its two front legs and rip them apart, and that stops it's heart or tears it's heart or something, apart from that I've never really read or considered much in the way of dogs.

I would think that kicking is the way to go though, strying to do anything with your hands is just asking to get a finger or two bitten off. Maybe a strong, low roundhouse to its head could kill or stun it, or maybe even break its neck?

A friend of mine once had a dog set on him by some racist git in London, and he stabbed the thing, but if didn't die it ran of with his knife stuck in it!

Ian.

 

[MisterMike]

A friend of mine once had a dog set on him by some racist git in London, and he stabbed the thing, but if didn't die it ran of with his knife stuck in it!

Here in the States they let us carry guns. Of course now if you shoot the dog, the owners try to sew you.

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by MisterMike
Here in the States they let us carry guns. Of course now if you shoot the dog, the owners try to sew you.

I have never been sewn by someone.
Maybe you meant sue.

 

[kenpo12]

But should it attack, my preference would be the famed kick to the chops if I could get it in there. The difference between a sick dog and human, other than the obvious anatomical ones, are its skill at biting but also its lack of skill at punching, grabbing and kicking.

First off this is the second time I've seen this come up on a MA forum and I cannot believe how ignorant most people are when it comes to dogs attacking. Dogs pick up on motion, so if you throw a kick, punch, reach out to grab or what ever, you are more than likely going to get bit. If you come across a stray dog your best bet is to find a stick, just in case you do end up needing it. If you have on a jacket you may want to wrap it around you arm just in cast the dog comes after you, give it something to go after, otherwise the dog will choose the target and that's not always going to turn out well.
Like others have said don't turn and run, always face the dog but don't stare it down. If the dog is on what it feels is his territory make sure not to cross into the dogs space. Most of the time yelling at the dog in a stern voice and telling it to "go home" will usually end the problem. If the do continues to approach you in an aggressive manner slowly back off and with that stick you should have picked up tap the dog on the end of the muzzle if you have too. If that doesn't stop the dog and he attacks try to "feed" the dog the stick rather than your arm or another body part, but if the dog really wants you, you are in trouble. If you can try to stay still if you can because the more you move and flail the worse damage the dog will do. If you can get ahold of the dogs throat you may be able to get it off of you but trust me, if a dog wants to hurt you, it will.
I used to live in a neigborhood with a lot of "loose" dogs and I was never bitten. I was growled at, and had my dog almost attacked but, I always carried a rattan stick just in case which I only had to actually use once. Just remember, punches, kicks and the like were intended to work on humans, it's our use of weapons and tools that moved us up on the food chain, so don't think you can punch out a 110lb dog.


Matt

 

[kenpo12]

I once read that if a dog gets on top of you, you're supposed to take hold of its two front legs and rip them apart, and that stops it's heart or tears it's heart or something,

Uh, right. You try that, cuz it's not going to be easy to pull when the dog is crushing your face in its mouth.

 

[KenpoMatt]

I can speak from experience on this one. I have been attacked by dogs twice.

The first time I was walking to catch a 6am bus. As i was crossing the street a trained attack dog (doberman pincher) ran out of the ware house he was guarding into the street behind me. I didn't see or hear him. He grabbed my arm and dragged me to the ground in the middle of the intersection. He clamped onto my arm and didn't let go, just like you see on those police training videos. He was snarling and shaking his head. There was blood gushing all over my trapped left arm. Funny - I wasn't scared. I was FURIOUS. I managed to stand up, reach around and throw some serious punches into the dog's ribs. I extended my knuckles the way you would to give someone a noogie. When the noogie-style punches landed I could feel the bones crack and separate. The dog quickly let go and did nothing else to me.

The second time I was walking my golden retriever in a residential neighborhood. Out of nowhere two very large rotweillers sprinted toward us. They had no chains or collars. But, I do not believe they were strays. The came from the direction of a reputed drug house. Anyway, one stopped directly in front of us. The other was to my left and was attempting to circle behind me and my dog. The snarled, foamed and snapped. I desperatly wanted to run but knew it was the worst thing I could have done. I did everything I could to keep both dogs in front of us. I was semi-successful. I yelled at them, I backed away from them but they got continuously closer and more aggressive. One of the dogs grabbed my golden by the neck and bit hard. I could see blood surfacing up through her coat. I picked up a large, thick stick and slammed it down on top of the 2nd dog's head. I cocked back and played smashed its head again, this time on the jaw. Then, a 3rd time on the back of its head/neck. All of this happened while my golden was being mauled by the 1st dog. The 2nd dog backed off a little but continued to snap and snarl. Then, the 1st dog simply let go of my golden. To this day, I still don't know why.

We walked away backwards, while facing the 2 dogs. After we got about 100 ft away the dogs just turned and trotted away. I'm still very confused by that attack. I suppose it isn't too difficult to figure out why the attack started? But, more importantly, why did it stop? It was very weird.

The most important lesson I learned from both of these attacks is DO NOT RUN. Do not do it no matter how scared you are. Other than that, use your head and look for the soft targets. If the dog is gonna bite you let it have your arm. A few puncture wounds on the fore arm is much better than having your vital areas torn out.

 

[MA-Caver]

Some of the replies I've seen here have been good ones... DO NOT RUN is the best ones in so far. Dogs can sprint up to 35 mph over a short distance... can you do 40? NOT! This also puts your back and hindquarters to the dogs weapons, jaws and teeth. Remember that a dog even a small one has more psi in it's jaws than a human.
I've been attacked, charged, and threatened by several dogs in my life. This mainly comes from no car and having to walk all the time... not necessarily a bad thing...except in the dead of winter...brrr.
My father has likewise been attacked when he was younger and his stories and methods helped me considerably when it came my turn.
One dog a full grown (beautiful) german shep. Leaped over it's fence and made me it's target. I, being the only one on the street that evening didn't have a choice if I wanted to be or not. The dog snarled loud enough for me to hear and turn around to see it land on the sidewalk running. 30 feet away I had no choice but to face it. I guessed (rightly...thank God) that he would jump to my chest and knock me down. I went with it and managed to get one hand on it's throat and the other grabbing the fur on the side of it's face. Luck not design. On the ground I was able to wrap my legs around it's torso and ...well anyone who has wrestled with me will tell ya that the game is over once that happens. Squeezing so to minimize the intake of breath and the dog snapping and snarling at my face... yes I was scared sh--less and probably hollering and screaming right along with the animal... I don't remember but I must've as neighbors came out to see what the hell was going on. The dog's owner?? Who knows...
I ended up smashing the dog on the nose with a open palm slash. This took the fight right out of him and now he was struggling to get away from me. I let go and got up quick.
The dog took off and went back to it's territory/house/whatever! Cowering by the gate of the fence... it couldn't get in...too bad.

Neighbors came by and helped check me out. I was bruised from the fall to the sidewalk and was probably experiencing a 200+ pulse rate but other than that no marks or bites.
I told one of the neighbors that the owner had best take the dog to the vet when he gets home... it wouldn't be able to breathe with a broken nose.
Had to throw away a nice shirt because of the tears and blood from the dog. Should've sued.

Point is that dogs do have vunerable spots... it's nose is THE most sensitive. Next spot (c'mon guys... you know this one) for male dogs anyway... ding! This is of course during close quarters if the dog is on you... even if it's biting.. a simple grab and hard yanking twist will teach that old dog a new trick.

Wrapping your legs around the animal and squeezing for all you got will help.
If your hand is in the animals mouth... pull down. Dogs bite UP not down and gettting your hand inside past the cainines they can't pull away either... smack it on the nose ... hard. If that doesn't work then grab it (the black nostrils) and pull.

Kicking at a dog? Chances are you're gonna miss. Especially if the dog is coming in low and moving fast. Remember even a big rotty is smaller than an average human and is powered by four legs not two, it's short (powerful) neck and broad jaws show exactly what it's designed for... fighting. Instinctively it knows how to fight far better than you do.

Your hands and your agility (and a cool head) are what's gonna save you from serious injury when a dog attacks.

Yelling NO does work (sometimes) I've found out.. and it helps! I've never had more than one come after me... dunno what I do with two of them. Hope I don't ever find out.

End of rant.

Kenpo Matt how did your Golden turn out afterwards... The Rott was obviously trying to break it's neck... I am assuming that there must've been major tissue damage... I felt bad for your dog hope he's alright.

 

[MisterMike]

First off this is the second time I've seen this come up on a MA forum and I cannot believe how ignorant most people are when it comes to dogs attacking. Dogs pick up on motion, so if you throw a kick, punch, reach out to grab or what ever, you are more than likely going to get bit. If you come across a stray dog your best bet is to find a stick, just in case you do end up needing it. If you have on a jacket you may want to wrap it around you arm just in cast the dog comes after you, give it something to go after, otherwise the dog will choose the target and that's not always going to turn out well.

I assume you mean me? Based on your advise, what if its summertime on the beach? Where's your coat and stick then? The question was posed on a Martial Art forum, and empty hand art forum at that. What little I did suggest by way of punching and kicking made more sense than you.

What I did NOT say was:

Kick it in the head.
Kick it in the mouth.
Kick it in the a$$

Get my point? I also started off by implying it's best not to provoke it and just try to sleek away. The kicking would be a last resort, since you may not be able to:

a) run away
b) get to shelter
c) grab a weapon

The loins are the easiest place to injure an animal because ribs break reallll easy. If you want to wrap your coat up and wrestle with my father's 150 lb German, by all means.

 

[Karasu Tengu]

One of my many Military Security duties was that of K-9 Decoy. You know the fool who puts on the padded suit and lets the 100 lb German Shepard guard dogs attack them. That was me.

I guess your defense would depend on the breed. Rots and Pit are being bread as fighting dogs so their instinct follow suit. They bite and hold and crush. Shepards, Pincers and Collies bite and tear more than crush. All dogs have the chasing instinct even more prevelant in packs.

One of the things I found is that dogs fight like they play so experimnet with you pet (but don't hurt them). I do backward roll/throws against my dog when we play. Also, dogs do not like haveing a fist rammed down their throat (Lion Tamers use this trick). The other thing is that a dog will take the target of opertunity. If I can do nothing else I will offer a suki (false target usually my arm as in decoy training) to the animal and get it into a positon. Then kick/punch combinations will be easier to execute.
This is a last resort technique I have used only once on a St. Bernard but here's what happens. Again it depends on the breed. Just as the dog takes the arm (they typically slow down or stop to deal with the target which had been my decoy experience) I bring the other arm around and on the back of its neck just below the spine/skull connection. Then as violently as I can I "jack" the target arm up rolling the dogs head back and over my other arm. Again depending upon the breed, this snaps the neck at about C-3 or the Atlas bone.

Personally, I would kill any dog that would attack me because it obviously cannot be around people...especially children. Public safety comes first. What if it had been a child in KenpoMatt's case instead of a trained MA?

There have been many good points posted here. Definitley something to look at or add to one's training.

 

[KenpoMatt]

MACaver
Kenpo Matt how did your Golden turn out afterwards... The Rott was obviously trying to break it's neck... I am assuming that there must've been major tissue damage... I felt bad for your dog hope he's alright.

Thanks for asking. She turned out fine. She required a bunch of stitches, and shots. Fortunatley the rotties weren't rabid. She had a sore neck for a few weeks. Ffortunatley (again), the dog only managed to tear her scruff & didn't hit bone or vital organs. We were both very lucky that day.

 

[kenpo12]

I assume you mean me? Based on your advise, what if its summertime on the beach? Where's your coat and stick then? The question was posed on a Martial Art forum, and empty hand art forum at that. What little I did suggest by way of punching and kicking made more sense than you.

If I'm at the beach, kicking with bare feet is an even worse idea. If you're on the beach I bet you'd have a towel. You can improvise, it doesn't have to be a jacket. If you're a martial artist your best asset should be your ability to be creative yet smart about defending yourself and attempting to kick a big dog that's coming after you is going to get you hurt.

I don't know what I said that didn't make sense, I'd like to know specifically what you dissagree with because I have used all of the tactics I mentioned, except for one that was a suggestion I got from a former MP dog handler.

You say you didn't specify where to kick it, but if a dog is attacking you, your choices are pretty much limited to the head, and like I said you're going to get bit.

As far a wrestling your fathers 150lb German Shepherd, you may want to double check the breed, cuz German Shepherds aren't that big unless you have a mixed breed or it's a Shiloh Shepherd, or possibly a King Shepherd. Unless you're just exaggerating, in which case makes me wonder how honest you are in the rest of your posts.

Matt

 

[kenpo12]

One of my many Military Security duties was that of K-9 Decoy. You know the fool who puts on the padded suit and lets the 100 lb German Shepard guard dogs attack them. That was me

Where did you go to school/AIT to become a K-9 handler?

Matt

 

[kenpo2dabone]

I have a friend that is involved with Shutzhound training and he asked me this question once. He agreed that my chances would be pretty good. Given a dog who is intent on biting and is charging at you full speed has to live under the same physice that we do. I play with my dog in the back yard all the time using Kenpo (in play). Granted my dogs intention is not to bite me but I find it fun and informative. My dog will charge me and jump at me and all I have to do is parry him and move off line. When a dog is in the air it can only go in the direction it was already traveling in. Now comes the fun part. He lands and in one motion is able to turn and come at me again. I do the same thing and shove him to the side with another perry and move off line. The problems arise when the dog stays on its feet and does not leave the ground. I have had a dog charge me and I kept my ground facing the dog and all it did was change direction a run around me. I continued to face it and the dog stood its ground as a stood mine. The dog lost interest and left. Now, what if the dog is able to get its teeth in you. If the dog is able to bite my arm I view it as a wrestling match and would try to stay on top. I would drive my arm deeper into the dogs mouth so that it can't bit as hard and it causes a gag reflex which makes the dog want to release. I have done this with my own dog and it seems to work well but again we are plaing and he has no intention of hurting me nor do I have any intention of hurting him. In this process I would be doing my best to gouge the dogs eyes and snap it's neck. This is assuming that I get the opprtunity to be ontop of the dog. I would do my best to make sure that dog does not survive the confrontation. The other problem is when the dog does sink its teeth in, if it has the oppertunity to get on its feet and shake its head. You are probably going to need something to hit it with. These ideas are based on my own experimentation with my own dog in loving manner both on my part and on the part of my dog so they are not totaly realisti and talking to people who train police dogs for a living. I have been attacked by dogs twice in my life but I was too young to do anything about it. In my adult life I have been charged a couple of time and merely standing my ground and facing the dog has done the trick. No attack occured. I have to say that it does make the sphincter pucker a little.

Salute,
Mike Miller UKF

 

[kenpo12]

In this process I would be doing my best to gouge the dogs eyes and snap it's neck.

kenpo 2dabone,

I agree with most of what wrote except for breaking a dogs neck. It does depend on the dog, but dogs necks are very strong and you would find it damn near impossible to break a dogs neck while it's biting you, especially if you're talking about something like a Rottie, American Staffordshire terrier, or a Pit Bull type breed.

Matt