Daito ryu has a Tai Chi lineage?

Discussion in 'The Great Debate' started by jasonbrinn, Jun 7, 2012.

  1. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Hi Jason,

    Please tell me you're not lecturing me on how to take Japanese history, Jason. And as far as the "history not yet revealed", and having "concrete linkage", there isn't anything concrete that has even been brought forth for the existance of Daito Ryu historically... now you, with your (bluntly) very limited exposure to Daito Ryu, have concrete links to a history containing a lineage from a completely unrelated art? You'll forgive us for not running to your side there....

    Oh, and I didn't think you were planning to put the book online here, Jason, but you are obviously looking to put it out to the public in some form.

    Here's the thing, Jason. Your method of learning (infrequent seminars and a training group) is not the only way that Daito Ryu is learnt. Additionally, your thirteen years amounted to you being awarded a Nidan... which isn't particularly high, and typically not high enough to receive the teachings at the level you're targeting this. This is part of why I'd question exactly what actual research you could have done to come up with such a bizarre conclusion.

    Quick question, though... how many "projects" do you have going? So far, since you joined here, you've mentioned at least half a dozen, by my reckoning.... which mainly consist of you asking people for their stories on the internet, which seems to make up the bulk of your "research" methods.

    Well, I'm referring to the above plethora of "projects" you've brought up here... as well as some of the quite odd conclusions you've come up with, which you have said is based on your "research". As for you being considered one of, if not the most knowledgable in your Daito Ryu group, honestly without saying who was in that group, it's not going to mean much.

    Right. Firstly, it's debated as to what Saigo Tanomo taught Takeda, or even if he taught him at all (martially speaking). But really, where is the evidence that Saigo had any Taiji connection himself? Honestly, there doesn't look like there's anything at all... I've never heard anything about Saigo going to China, studying with any Chinese martial artists, or anything similar. He became a Shinto priest later in his life (after the Satsuma Rebellion and the Boshin War), which is not a religious form found in China... so where does any of this come from? And as far as the kanji used, honestly that's not enough to convince me (quite beside the fact that you state you have absolutely no Japanese ability yourself, so you'd be relying on other's say-so), as there have been quite a number of cases of documents using older characters which are modern documents themselves. So again, there is nothing that you've given that gives even pause for thought.

    And that's kinda the point. I get that you're not about to just put your entire book out here, but so far you've provided absolutely nothing, other than you thinking you see some similarity between some Daito Ryu drills and one specific Taiji one, which isn't even common to all forms of Taiji...

    So you're saying that, although you have said you studied "for thirteen years directly under Okamoto Sensei", which would presumably mean he was in charge of your development, he awarded you your ranking during that time, and he gave you your direction, you actually were under someone else, who trained and ranked you, but didn't teach you anything so when you stopped learning under him, you had to start again, and then got ranked up to Nidan? So how long were you actually learning when it wasn't this "wasted" time? Because really, if you got your Shodan while studying "directly under Okamoto Shihan", why would you have needed to start again under him? It's really looking like your time in Daito Ryu, and your exposure to it's teachings, are rather more limited than you've implied.

    Hmm. This really seems to imply a close relationship... but I'm not sure about that.

    Do you have any points on it? You've started with asking if anyone here has thoughts about the idea, but you've yet to give any actual back up to your ideas. And the "personal" questions are about seeing how valid your research is... after all, we have people like Zenjael (Alex) here who also believes his knowledge is pretty special... yet gets pretty much everything wrong every time he types.

    I'm not sure why you'd jump on that, Jason... Quite beside the point that they were having some fun with the idea, it's infinitely more plausible than what you're proposing here. After all, Mikkyo is a Japanese form of Buddhism which has influenced the spiritual traditions of a range of Japanese martial arts, which is quite well documented and known, whereas you're basically saying "hey, these two arts from different times, locations, cultures, and more have similar movements, they must be related!"

    So yes, the idea of a Taiji connection is a huge jump, and the idea of a Mikkyo connection isn't. If you aren't aware of that, you're really way out of your depth in this type of research.

    Look, I don't want to suggest this is the case, but are you aware that when a Japanese instructor has decided that a student isn't worth teaching, that's pretty much what they say? Gentle, non-committal encouragement to just go and keep going with what you're doing, rather than continuing to correct them and pay attention to their development? Just a thought....

    Again, though Jason, what "secrets" would you have been privy to at such a low level, having to start over, and seeing Okamoto at infrequent seminars? I have students who, after training in one aspect or another for a while, have little breakthroughs, and think they have a deep understanding, or have gotten one or another "secret"... however, that is far from the case.

    Okay.

    So... no teacher of Daito Ryu support the idea, no-one who is familiar with either Daito Ryu or Taiji support it, no-one familiar with history can see any support for it, it's based on your incorrect dates and historical understanding (as detailed earlier in the thread from the CMA side), and an observation of a similar action found in two arts? Isn't that a clue for you, at least as to why the idea is being met with such resistance here? It's not that we're not open minded, it's that there hasn't been any reason presented to consider it for even a moment.

    At least twice now you have seen the comment that comes up over your rep icon and complained about it in public threads... have you given any thought to the fact that it comes from such comments as these? You have shown no evidence whatsoever for your, really, outlandish claims, even when asked for some 5 pages now and being presented with evidence that flatly contradicts your idea, which you have not answered or even acknowledged. The comment is then made that you are seemingly in denial of the reality of what you are proposing, and you come back with a "flat earth" comment? Firstly, there really aren't parallel's between not giving credence to your idea and the "flat earth" supporters you're bringing up... in fact, they go in opposite directions. And secondly, the idea of a flat earth can be disproven by providing the evidence of it being curved... where is the evidence for your claim?

    Then present your evidence. You made the claim in public, you've been asked for something to back it up, but you have so far said "it's in the book", or "I'm not going to put my entire book here", or something similar...

    I appreciate your position, but come on. If you make an extraordinary claim, it needs extraordinary proof. And if you make that claim in public, be prepared to present that proof in public. Otherwise, don't make the claim.

    Hmm. But if we apply critical thinking to your proposal, present evidence against it, and ask for your evidence (which we are not then given), which leads us to reject your idea as out of the question, that means...?

    Is that anything like "Might makes right"? Or "The ends justify the means"? Honestly, in this case (and similar), just because it might fit in a way doesn't make it right. It just means that there are similarities, which could be co-incidental in entirety. Or, to give you another quote: Post hoc ergo propter hoc. And remember that that phrase is meant as a warning against making false assumptions.

    What facts, Jason? And as far as common sense, that has been rather lacking as well.

    Hmm. Not sure about that. He did say "When in doubt, tell the truth", and "Truth is stranger than fiction", as well as a number of other things, but never anything even resembling the sentiment you're putting forth there. The only occasion I can think of where such a thing would be said is more of a Wilde-ism, along the lines of "The only thing worse than being talked about, is not being talked about". In other words, a deliberate irony designed to illustrate the opposite reality.

    That said, the most common usage of that phrase I come across are in relation to journalism and politics, where selling the message is more important than honesty. So I don't think you're really helping yourself with that one.

    So you're going to present superficial similarities and circumstancial evidence? Then you're going to play connect the dots with them? I really can't say I'm overwhelmed by this approach...

    So you're presenting as history this idea, with no support from any other source? Surely you can see how presenting such a potentially misleading/inaccurate account could be seen as lying to people?

    Say, here's a quote from Twain for you... "A man is never more honest than when he names himself a liar..."

    But here's probably the most important question and answer in this thread:

    Then how could you possibly be researching these topics?
     
  2. Jameswhelan

    Jameswhelan Yellow Belt

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    Hello Mr Brinn,

    The late Sato Kinbei had Daito ryu kyoju dairi (as well as kaiden of Takeda ryu) and was one of Japan's leading figures in Tai Chi.


    Perhaps some of his successors in Daiwado or the webmaster of jujutsu.com can help you out.


    Good luck with your research. It sounds like an interesting book!
     
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  3. jasonbrinn

    jasonbrinn Purple Belt

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    First off Chris - let me say that you TOTALLY win here on the interwebs no doubt. Your ability to pull apart and analyze the smallest details of peoples posts on almost ANY subject across this entire website no matter the subject as if an expert panel with supreme knowledge is breathtaking. The shear mountainous word walls you post with take even the most sincere masters of their subject to task and ultimately have them confused as to what is happening across the spectrum from what I can tell, or maybe just blind from trying to read and catch up... I salute you sir. Seriously your passion is respected and your attention to detail something to be admired but just because you make sound and well thought arguments doesn't mean your are right....as in this case.

    I would NEVER lecture you Chris or anyone for that matter sorry if it came across that way. I was posing a question with the post - Daito ryu has a Tai Chi lineage? I wasn't making a statement - Daito ryu has a Tai Chi lineage. I was curious to hear others thoughts so I said to myself hey aren't there these things online called forums (A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged) and so I posted the QUESTION.

    Obviously I will make the book public when it is done. I have already written the history chapter and whats left is dealing with technique so I am not looking for others to "fill in gaps" for me Chris but thanks for suggesting I have such a work ethic.

    My "method" of learning is THE method of learning Chris. Sorry if in your school it is different but this is the way MOST everyone trains. I wouldn't say 2-3 times a year for multiple days is infrequent either. The TOP ranking Daito ryu teachers here in the states train this way Chris - should I let them know that this is insufficient....hmm maybe not, we can save that for later.

    And right about here you show your ego/ignorance a little too much and I am forced to pull back the curtain ole wise and magnificent one. You see, Roppokai is different in that Okamoto sensei teaches from a specific set of techniques RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING. We are only taught AIKI and nothing more. We skip the 118 and others. But how would you know that anyway Chris? I earned a nidan yes, and two more ranks would have allowed me to actually start ranking others so that seems plenty high enough for me Chris.

    Lastly, does rank preclude research and conclusion? I guess in your world all people are just stupid unti they have a rank higher than your own. I, on the other hand learn from my beginning students all the time. When the student's ready the teacher appears Chris.

    Is that a hint of jealously? Why does the number of projects I am doing matter? I have the number of projects that I can handle - some men can handle more and then Chris some can only handle a little. You have now IDEA what my research consists of so what a remark sir - really!

    In the book I will SHOW the line given to Tanomo and show the priest line as the ones who carried it down. I won't actually have pictures or a letter from Tanomo in his own blood but the research is good I believe. At the end of the day Chris books are just ideas. I am sharing an idea and giving the reasons. You don't have to like it or even read it and either way you might just still enjoy it. I know that posting on forum threads is the end all be all but I am having fun doing the book too believe it or not.

    Again, this wouldn't get so messed up if you used a little humility here sir and understand that you don't know everything. Roppokai has seniors in place to help Okamoto sensei keep training going and do administrative things. you see in Roppokai you have to keep detailed notes of how many times and hours someone trains. In Roppokai noone gets rank unless they have a certain amount of time with Okamoto sensei personally - although there is still a monthly training time requirement with or without him being present.

    Roppokai in NC started under one person, he got kicked out. Before he got kicked out I was put up for blackbelt rank, although he did something dishonorable and lied about a lot of things...the reason why he was ultimately kicked out. Okamoto sensei actually told all of us in NC that he was grading us much harder and on a longer cycle so that there would never be any question as to our rank (which is iritating having someone like you now doing this). During the interim I was told to continue teaching and training at my school and remain in the Roppokai until we could reform the larger group. Okamoto sensei had me try and get everyone together but the person kicked out was making a large fuss so Okamoto sensei decided we would just wait and let tim deal with him and regroup the big group later. During this span a person in New York continued to rank with Okamoto sensei and since I could not have Okamoto sensei in for a visit to NC my group did not rank. When the big group reformed we were placed under the East Coast representative - not as his students but as an administrative thing only (Okamoto was my ONLY teacher). This East Coast rep was asked what to do with the NC guys as he had a school in NY and had been ranking regularly with sensei - I imagined it would be weird for them to have people show up that they had never seen and then them all of the sudden get ranked above them so he ultimately made a decision politically. The guys in NC and myself could care less about rank so we said sure whatever makes things easy and so we started over again from white belt. Then I got back up to 2nd dan again before Okamoto sensei's health started hindering his travels.

    What a rude, hurtful and utterly useless, factless comment to make sir - you are above this.


    If you don't want to suggest something then let me suggest NOT suggesting it. You truly are "the AMAZING Chris" who can from the ease of his keyboard probe the mind of an 87 year old man. Okamoto sensei is a gracious and incredible teacher and is above the character that you might resort or speak of sir.

    Again your ignorance in this subject matter is glaring. Seminars is how EVERYONE is trained sir. My low level training started at your high level so thats how I can talk about "secrets" which when you read the book you will understand that I am joking about "secrets."

    I didn't say this you read into this yourself. There are in fact others who have thought the same and made inroads into the research as well which I will layout in the book. My dates and understanding are historical facts so pull out your DeLorean if you don't like what you read.

    I plan to but this thread is just a simple question which interestingly enough brought all this on - sensitive much?

    Very carefully.
     
  4. jasonbrinn

    jasonbrinn Purple Belt

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    Thank you sir - THIS was the point of my posting this thread. I will let you know what I find!
     
  5. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    If you produce a book that says there is a direct link to Taiji then you may want to reconsider that last line about never lying because you most certainly are and from that I am fairly sure truth is not of much interest to you. And if you want to try and label me as a crack pot with lines like
    because I make statements based on historic fact and not run with fantasy like you are then so be it. All I know is if you push this and tell your students that there is a connection then you are lying to them and if you are lying to them about that then what else are you lying to them about.

    Now, I posted historical facts and dates and asked questions that you chose to ignore and I am guessing is because it takes the fantasy you are trying to build and runs it smack into the wall. You want to pretend there is a connection then go ahead, you want to lie to your students, and if you are sticking with this Taiji connection that is exactly what you are doing ,then lie to them. Between the two of us I am betting I have done a heck of alot more research on China, Chan, Zen, CMA and Taiji than you have ever done or will do. And what you feel or think of me means little but I do feel sorry for those that call you teacher since you appear to have no problem what-so-ever lying to them in the face ofwhat is excepted historic fact.

    And one last thing my friend.....Taiji is generally not associated with Buddhist Chan or Zen (do you have any idea what Chan even is...I wonder).... it tends to be associated with Taoist who are decidedly not Buddhist. That does not mean that Buddhist did not do Taiji but it does mean that your Zen link back to China, which is factual has is absolutely no proof of a connection to Taiji.


    You have to live with this, I don't.... I do however feel sorry for your students


    Enjoy your little fantasy.....We’re done son
     
  6. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    Funny, it was not the point a few posts back...you were trying to say there was a connection that was well over 500 years old.... You need to maintain focus.
     
  7. jasonbrinn

    jasonbrinn Purple Belt

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    I never said the link wasn't Taoist. And I was joking about the "fall off the Earth thing" come on. My students choose to train with me after having been exposed to others so its their choice.

    thank you and happy trails.
     
  8. jasonbrinn

    jasonbrinn Purple Belt

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    yes - I have the links over 500 years worth and YES I am still interested in learning more.
     
  9. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    You just can't keep the story straight can you..... nowits Taoist... you never said it was not related to dwarves elves and fairieswho frolic in the woods either....sheeesh.... what next…Egyptians who got it from Mesopotamia…..thisis just getting plain silly.... you are more than clueless here and way out of your league....
     
  10. oaktree

    oaktree Master of Arts

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    Hi James
    I hope you can answer provide proof to the statements you made.
    From the original post you still have not provided proof or even a reasonable arguement.
    Proof it. Proof the date, the name in Hanzi and the style of Taijiquan.
    Proof it.
    How can you say there is a possible link when you said here:
    and:
    How were we suppose to take it with comments like this:
    As Jameswhelan said:
    Now Sato Kinbei Taijiquan training is well established. He trained with Wang Shu Jin(actually alot of Japanese did) and Wang has a legit Taijiquan line.
    But again so what if Sato trained in Daito ryu and Taijiquan from people like Wang Shu Jin doesn't mean Daito ryu has a Taijiquan line just means someone trained in both.

    Again, if we are going to take the whole Daito ryu has a line in one of the family styles of Taijiquan we need to know 1.which family has passed the teaching from who to who, the period it took place proof that this took place. 2.What in Daito ryu is Taijiquan? Does Daito ryu do Tuishou,Chan si jing, Laojia or some other form what in Daito ryu can we see that has some resemble of Tajiquan.
     
  11. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    I just noticed this, so to clarify. :rolleyes:



    Everybody knows Miyama ryu is from da Bronx! :lfao:

    Williams shihan was one of my seniors. Like him, I went to Japan for training.

    Kyokushin was not all I studied there, though.....




    I haven't even started "attacking" you....:lfao:....you have no idea!

    As for not agreeing with your idea, it might be different if you had said that daito ryu had a "Chinese" influence, or roots in "Chinese martial arts"-Ellis Amdur puts forth the notion in "Hidden in Plain Sight," and, in a limited cultural context, it makes sense-but to be as specific as far as to tai chi lineageas you have is....... fairly absurd.:lfao:
     
  12. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Hi Jason,

    Yeah, here's the thing, Jason... when I put down a large post, I tend to actually say something. This post of yours, I'm not sure about...

    You might want to re-examine the context of my comment, then. I wasn't referring to your OP (although, bluntly, although the topic sentence is presented with a question mark, you followed it by you saying that your "research" has lead you to the conclusion that there is a connection, which you're putting in a book [although I hope you're getting a good editor or proof-reader, to avoid saying such things as "there is a linkage between the arts"....], with the only actual question being you asking for others to give their "opinions/stories/thoughts", which later added "imaginings" about your idea), I was referring to the way you were talking (to me) about the way Japanese history is written, citing the Kojiki. That's what I meant by you lecturing me on reading Japanese history.

    So why the thread? If you've already written it, then anything others could add wouldn't be used, and you're not being swayed by the arguments against what you've suggested, so... is this just an attempt at generating some publicity for you and the book for when it comes out? Nah, you said that this wasn't to make you come across as "smart"....

    Except you weren't the most senior, by your own admission. I can accept the most senior, who can only receive correction from those above them (such as the head of any particular line) getting their information/training from such a person by intervals, but that is rarely just at seminars, it's more realistically also involving visits for training in a more personal interaction... for those below, they receive their training from those above them (the senior). And the senior needs to continue their training personally as well, to maintain consistency in their skills. Seminars really can't give you that type of depth.

    Oh, and the "only method of learning"? I really, really, really doubt that. For persons who don't attend a real dojo in the US, okay. But "the only method of learning"? Across the world? And in all lines of Daito Ryu? No, I doubt that highly. Hmm, I might ask at my local Daito Ryu dojo though... I'm sure they train more than just at occasional seminars...

    You know, Jason, I asked you for this exact information very directly before, and you wouldn't/couldn't answer me: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...arring-what-is-it-and-is-it-worth-doing/page7 (posts 100 onward), including:


    So what you're saying is that Okamoto eschews all the basic levels of Daito Ryu? And that you weren't ranked highly enough to be able to award rank yourself? But you still got to quite a high level? Hmm.

    No, but (particularly in Koryu circles, which Daito Ryu claims) rank does tend to dictate what sources might be available to you. You may learn from your students, but they can hardly teach you the secret lineage of the art, or any other esoteric aspects. The whole "when the student's ready" thing is just irrelevant.

    Jealousy? Not in the slightest. More accurately, I'm getting the impression that you do a lot of things halfway, and can't really get anything properly done by dedicating to it, which leads me to feel that the "research" for your book will be similarly half-done. But to give an idea of what I'm talking about...

    http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?103626-Judo-newaza-from-Handa-dojo

    http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?103627-chan-su-jing-anyone

    http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?102992-What-INSPIRES-you

    http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?102296-Inspirational-Stories

    http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?99731-Advertising

    As well as things like the solicitation for me to send you articles for your book(s)....

    So you'll show the line of Taiji given to Tanomo (who is associated with Takeda Sokaku), to show that there is a history of Taiji linked to the history of Taiji? Then you say that link goes for over 500 years? When the connection of Tanomo to Daito Ryu is through Takeda 100 years ago?

    Personal time with Okamoto, or time attending his classes and seminars? They are two rather different things, really, and when the question of personal relationships comes up, it's an important distinction...

    You're talking about Dean Stewart there, yeah? Interesting that the stories that came out had all students leave, including Dean, before he was "expelled". Then Howard Popkin (as the person in New York)? As far as having students turn up from another dojo with ranking, why would that be weird? I'd be more concerned if the students came across with a number of years under their belts, but no ranking... I'd wonder why not.

    Please. What I'm saying is that there isn't anything in your stories that lead me to believe that there is a real personal relationship there, so I put that forth as a possibility. For example, according to the other former members of the NC Roppokai under Dean Stewart, all of the more "senior" students (brown belt and up) were sent letters asking them to take over... so the idea of Okamoto asking you to "hold it together" might be you reading too much into the reality.

    So what you're saying is that Okamoto is such a gracious person that he's above being Japanese? You don't realize that such behaviour isn't a character slur, it's an observation of a cultural behaviour, and is one designed to preserve face on both sides... in other words, to maintain the appearance of grace and generosity without needing to invest in the student too much.

    No, it's not. A simple look around gives me the locations and training times of the various dojos around the world, showing that the training is not purely at seminars. Additionally, if you really did start at the "esoteric" level, that would be unique among martial traditions...

    Go back through the thread, Jason. Read what you've been told by others, because your dates aren't making much sense...

    Sensitive? Me? Are you serious on that? You're the one being precious about not saying anything, not backing anything up, not presenting any actual evidence, ignoring the arguments put up by others, and so on.

    Very carefully? Really? You're going to "very carefully" research in languages you can't understand or read? How are you going to go about it?

    Oh, and not being able to understand Japanese... doesn't that put a crimp in your relationship with Okamoto?

    How does Sato Kinbei learning Daito Ryu and Taiji from two different teachers at two different times have any relevance? The best would be that they could discuss similarities, but that's where you're at now. You could also ask about Asayama Ichiden Ryu, which Sato Kinbei was the lineage head of, and which I've mentioned as also having a few similarities to Daito Ryu for far more logical and plausible reasons. Your best contact is Tanemura Shoto of the Genbukan, who learnt (and received Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu) from Sato Kinbei, as well as other things, and is currently studying (and teaching) Daito Ryu, originally through Sato Kinbei.

    But not in arguments against what you've decided... hmm.
     
  13. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    I have read before that it was a THEORY that, Ueshiba came in contact with some chinese martial artists during his time in China and that they may have influenced his later expression of aikido. Some of the circular footwork of getting behind an attacker was very similar to the footwork in Bagua. But, it was never proven or any actual Bagua martial artists connected to his group while it was in China. It was more of a way trying to explain why his Aikido looked so much different than the other japanese arts and it's root of Daito-Ryu. Who knows? Maybe when you have a high level martial artist they can see something from another art and figure out how it worked and incorporate it into what they are doing. But, does that mean that there is a link to that art, or they trained in it? I don't think so.
     
  14. jasonbrinn

    jasonbrinn Purple Belt

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    Look Chris - maybe I am not good. Maybe I am not trained to a level you would like or have the technical level or professional merit to write a book that you feel necessary. I am just writing about something I loved for 13 years and dedicated myself to with all of my heart. Maybe I will put my ideas out there and people will laugh at them and me - it won't be the first time. All I know is that I did the training and I did my best. I am writing the book the best way I can for reasons I consider to be the best, others. I do my best and sincerely train and try to do more everyday and if I fail or fall short then I accept that cause I can do is my best.

    I am not trying to get into a pissing match with people who are more than likely better trained for longer than myself from people more directly. I am a simple student who is writing a simple book - nothing more.

    As for the person you mentioned from the NC Roppokai group - I was a "senior" student there. I got my brown belt and a certificate that was supposed to be for black belt during a black belt grading but due to that person's actions this was all messed up. I helped that person train the videos from Okamoto sensei for 3 months 2-3 hours 3-4 times a week privately to prepare for his visit. I taught tai chi at that school. I marketed for the school and did countless demos. I traveld with that person to teach other groups. That person had me shuttle Okamoto sensei around during his visits and stays with us which had me spending many hours with him away from the training mat.

    Because of that person I wrote a private letter to Lopez sensei in Texas letting him know that I thought something bad was going on which started a private conversation between Okamoto sensei and the Roppokai Board of Directors and myself. It resulted in private meetings with Okamoto sensei, Lopez sensei and myself. Ultimately after that person was expelled Okamoto sensei asked me to contact all the other members and try to reform the group as it was that person not them that he was expelling. When I contacted people they got very angry as that person told them I was the reason they were kicked out - it went VERY badly. Okamoto sensei apologized for my trouble and said that we should wait awhile for that person to move on to other things and then we would try again. I was the ONLY person in NC that stayed in the Roppokai through the whole thing and remained that way until hearing my friend Tom in Charlotte trying to start the group again. I called Tom and we got together to make the NC Roppokai again - he ran the group in Charlotte and I ran a group in Raleigh and we pulled together to bring Okamoto sensei in for regular visits as well as went to NY to meet Okamoto sensei there when he visited.


    I asked you if you were interested in writing any articles for a website magazine that I am about to release; www.inspiremartialarts.com It is going to be a website filled with stories meant to inspire people. Stories about inspirational martial artists, etc. I have many people writing for the website. I respect your knowledge and passion and think you are a great writer and someone that I could learn from as well as someone that others could benefit from reading. The website is being kicked off with an article about Henry Smalls, a Kendo teacher in Hawaii with no legs. I am doing the article myself and have had to wait for the photographer to get the pictures back for the article. As soon as everything is done, which should be days now, I will release the site and that project will be completed and working.

    The "Handa" judo thread is something I was posting for a friend who has been contracted to write a book about the subject. I was fishing for him to see if anyone had any stories, or ideas/links he had not come across yet - nothing more. That project is complete.

    The inspirational stories and advertising were both for www.inspiremartialarts.com as previously mentioned.

    The chan su jing thing was in reference to my book "Natural Aiki." So the only Daito ryu I have any official training in is Roppokai. In Roppokai we focus on small aiki movements. These movements I recognized as being VERY similar to the silk reeling exercises I had learned during my tai chi studies. This is something that I mentioned often to my Roppokai friends and seniors. When I say I believe there is a Daito Tai Chi linkage I mean that the aiki set of movements and the chan su jing movements seem to be from the same source (more likely a taoist link than a Tai Chi one and my research supports this). I titled the thread the way I did and posted the way I did because I was hoping to find hard lines as I thought I would. I wanted to be sure about peoples opinions on the subject and wanted to do a basic final gut check for the book.

    The Rinzai school of Zen has strong links to taoist people in China and those people have strong links to taoist internal arts. It was written about exercises and others have detailed Aiki no In-yo-ho, oshikiuchi and other practices as having come from these links. There is even stories of Yoshimitsu working to get and getting his hands on a manuscript of Chinese teachings along these lines. The Rinzai school, Daitokuji temple and Shūhō Myōchō (referred to as Daito) is the start of the connection I care about and the passing of what I believe was essentially chan su jing through the priest lines of that temple and sect which ultimately came to Tanomo and was given to Takeda. Takeda taught Horikawa, a man who was given the highest honor of any living Japanese person "meijin" (Takeda told Horikawa that since he was so small, only 4'11", that he would have to learn aiki as the jujutsu wouldn't work for him) Horikawa taught Okamoto sensei who then taught me.

    This along with things like the scrolls names closely resembling teachings found within the Zen sect, the actual techniques recorded on the scrolls themselves referring to religious practices as ways to teach the techniques and on and on.

    At the end of the day the book is just a simple book more or less going to make no impact more than likely outside of my small group and even within my small group probably going to collect dust on someone's shelf somewhere. What I can say without doubt or apology is that my study of chan su jing has not only amplified my aiki techniques but has allowed me to attain what I was searching to do within the Roppokai.


    thank you to everyone for your input and sorry for any inconviences I might have caused with this simple thread.
     
  15. jasonbrinn

    jasonbrinn Purple Belt

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    Unlike some people here I don't know everything about the martial arts and I actually know little outside of what I was directly trained in. I had know idea about Miyama ryu - unless it is related to some old Panther videos I have on aikijujutsu.



    I am honored we share a link in lineage. A funny story is that one day while I was training he was a guest in the class. We were doing punching and he came and stood right beside my face and starred in my eyes while I punched. I was about to pee in my pants and then on one of my punches with the blink of an eye Williams sensei catches my fist outstretched and simply says "You must punch faster" and then walks away. Lol - I was so in over my head from the start!

    I hope you never decide to then.
     
  16. Chris Li

    Chris Li Yellow Belt

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    I mentioned it in a separate post, I don't really buy into the theory of Ueshiba studying Bagua in China.

    There are a number of reasons, but off the top of my head - he wasn't really there that long, the circumstances of the Japanese occupation weren't conducive to that kind of interaction, he was already teaching Daito-ryu at that time, and Daito-ryu and Ueshiba's Aikido really weren't all that far apart.

    Anyway, the Chinese influences that I was referring to would have come much further back - Kiichi Hogen, for example, was some 700 years before Ueshiba was born.

    Best,

    Chris
     
  17. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    Thanks. Like I said, I had read the theory before. I know Abe Sensei has stated that Ueshiba told him that he had looked into CMA's when he was in China and that was the purpose of him going along with Deguchi and her mission, but other students have said "no". In 1924, Ueshiba was in China for about half a year before the Oomoto group was arrested. His group traveled with a chinese "independance army", so who knows if he experienced anything informally of trading ideas or discussions. Then from 1939-1942, he taught at a japanese dojo in Manchuria before the japanese were kicked out of China. I agree, not much in way of a formal study like he would have had in Daito-Ryu.

    The hard part is influence vs. formal training. Bruce Lee for example, was influenced by the footwork of fencing and his straight lead, but he never "studied" fencing. We have his notes on some books that he had, but that is all. I'm sure that some of his students might not have even known that. Are there some similarities to BaGua? Yep, but I think we have more examples of that then most people do of Daito-Ryu.

    Except for Abe Sensei, most of the people who point to a chinese source (BK Frantiz) are Chinese martial artists who seem to be pointing out how great their own art is. On the other hand, the Japanese are also known for denying any chinese influences due to national pride. In the end, no one will ever know the truth. And in the end, it doesn't really matter other than a mental exercise of "what if".
     
  18. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I've also heard this and it does raise another question: how much can one be influenced by something that they have never actually studied?
     
  19. Blindside

    Blindside Senior Master

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    If you look at the structure of JKD lead hand position and entire philosophy of the "intercepting fist", apparently quite a bit.
     
  20. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I don't have any experience with JKD and I'm not trying to imply otherwise. I have a semester's worth of experience with Foil fencing in college phys-ed, so I've got a little bit there.

    Whatever is there, is it really as a result of influence, or is it more coincidentally similar? I'm asking in all honesty. If you can describe the JKD lead hand position and the philosophy of the intercepting fist, and explain how that was influenced by fencing, I would be interested.

    If one hasn't studied the method, I just question how much influence it can have.123
     

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