Daito ryu has a Tai Chi lineage?

Discussion in 'The Great Debate' started by jasonbrinn, Jun 7, 2012.

  1. oaktree

    oaktree Master of Arts

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    Hi Jason,
    Usually writers take two directions when writing something A.Informative or B.Persuasive. I

    f I were writing a book on a subject that may be contradicting or controversial than I would need a plausible case with plausible evidence to support my book. Of course when someone posts on a public forum they have evidence to support their conculsion it is only natural for us all to ask for the evidence to see if it makes any sense.

    Mr. Silver in one of my links proposed a plausible theory to how Taijiquan came to be with evidence that supports his theory at least enough to entertain the idea that maybe another family had a hand in its creation.

    Credentials do carry weight in writing and publishing a book which is why on most martial art books the back lists the authors experience.
    Many people turn to books as a source of authority because to be honest if you are writing a book on the subject your authority on that subject should be on an academic level of understanding of the material. I think connecting the Chinese idea of Qi and the Dantian with Ki and the Hara in the Chinese internal arts and the Japanese arts and using Qigong and Kokyu in Taijiquan and Aikido or Daito ryu might make your conclusion more sound.

    However your posts and what little evidence you have presented is just not enough to draw a plausible conclusion to the theory you have present. It is the authors job to provide enough support in his or her arguement or thesis for the reader or audience. I really look forward to the book who knows maybe it will be your first draft and with some critques maybe your second edition could be one worth proud of. My English professor in college use to say"Don't worry about your first draft to much its going to be garbage anyway, its just there to get the kinks out"
     
  2. docflagen

    docflagen White Belt

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    Jason,

    Let me clarify a few things:

    1) I do not hold a grudge.
    2) I hope your injuries were fake. Being the proud owner of a titanium knee since 2008, I wish you only good health now and in the future.
    3) When we last interacted, I had an issue with some ways you represented yourself in the past. I also had issues with the way you appeared to burn certain items in a symbolic ceremony.

    If you say you learned some things and you are a different person, I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. You were, in my opinion, the victim of a few things:
    a) you were involved with a group under Okamoto that self destructed
    b) you were an early proponent of cross training, which has pros and cons - pro - great skills - con - not enough time in one area to get the full picture or rank
    c) In my humble opinion, if you did speak with one of Okamoto's representatives, you were misled...intentionally or unintentionally

    Bottom line, water under the bridge.

    I had to leave Okamoto's organization...not because I didn't love Okamoto or his Daitoryu, but because his organization simply didn't fit my needs. I wasn't permitted to teach where I wanted or when I wanted and the organization couldn't send qualified instructors anymore.

    So why am I telling you this....???

    I am training....I am taking what I learned and continuing to explore the Datioryu as taught by Okamoto and will do so for the rest of my life.

    I urge you to do the same.

    Best wishes in your training.

    Howard

    PS -I think Daitoryu has many aspects that are similar, if not identical to Tai chi, wouldn't surprise me if there was a direct connection, I just don't know of any.
     
  3. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    bit of a trainwreck here but I'll just throw out an example, something to consider...

    My white crane Sifu told us that many years ago an acquaintance of his stopped by his office at work to chat with him. This person said that he thinks White Crane came from Taiji, and wanted to know what my Sifu thought about that. Sifu thought it was garbage, had never heard of that before, and told the guy as much.

    Later, Sifu did train some Chen taiji for a while. He gained an understanding of how Taiji works, and he even saw some similar principles at work, tho the expression was different. He suddenly realized why his friend thought White Crane came from Taiji. There are similiarities.

    That doesn't mean one came from the other. It only means that people figured out the same key elements and found a way to put those elements into action, within their respective systems. This kind of thing happens independently. Of course that doesn't rule out the possibility that someone in the past did get some influence from the other system, but there is no documentation of it, it cannot be proven and is mere speculation.

    But other than that possibility, the history of our system is pretty well documented, and it is not a Taiji derivative.

    This may also be the case between Daitoryu and Taiji.
     
  4. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Right. We've moved locations, have we? Okay then...

    Not necessarily opposite, but far more congruent with what I've heard from other sources as well. Now, whether you appreciate it or not, the story you have put forth has raised a large number of questions, and that is what I was seeing answered, or at least, presented congruently to other versions.

    Well, as you said, "let's take a look for the record". You never stated a name. You mentioned "other people", "former seniors", a "former leader of the Roppokai NC group" and so on, but never a name. In fact, I was the first to bring up Howards name here... as the leader of the NY group, not the NC group. That was Dean Stewart.

    What I said didn't make sense was you saying that you trained for 13 years with Okamoto, when obviously you were part of this other group (under Dean Stewart), as well as the issue of you receiving Shodan twice (although you then said that you were "nearing Shodan" the first time, and were actually a brown belt...), and so on.

    "Moot", not "mute". As for the rest, that's really neither here nor there... but you have nicely demonstrated that seminars under Okamoto are not the exclusive method of training... after all, you now say you were training for five months before hand.

    See, again, I thought you were talking about Dean Stewart there...

    Personally, I think you're choosing a phrasing that could be considered misleading by saying you trained with Okamoto for 13 years. That implies, as Elder was referring to earlier, constant contact (weekly, if not more often) with him. For example, I trained for over 12 years with my instructor, and took over for the school as instructor a number of years ago... and I've been training in my organisation for nearly 20 years, under my Chief Instructor. But I wouldn't say I've been training for 19 years with my Chief Instructor, because I haven't.

    You don't speak or read Japanese, but the senior members and board of the Roppokai were telling you, as a brown belt, to be the leader of the training group, because you had superior knowledge? Can you see how this is a little difficult to swallow without anything backing it up? Especially when the reports that came out had all brown belts and above in the Roppokai NC group being asked to take over the running of the group, so they would probably have similar communication to the type you received? They just might not have read so much into it...

    Uh, yeah... got that. First you danced around, and said "The answer .... is in the book!", before finally saying that this idea didn't come from him. Which has left the still unanswered question of why you feel that you're in a better place to comment on the history, if you trained for 13 years with Okamoto, he was the only one teaching you, and you don't speak or read the language...

    Who likes each other and who doesn't isn't really anything that has much relevance, honestly. Who was in a position to get what information, on the other hand, is.

    Before I deal with the main thrust of this part, can I just ask again, "linkage"? Are you sure that's the word you want to use? Particularly if you're trying your hand at being an author...

    But back to it. I haven't attacked your character, Jason. I've questioned where you got your ideas from, what support you have for it, and so on. And so far you have been far from forthcoming with such answers. But can I ask what you think we were trying to do by asking for clarification of your background, in not "taking the time to get to know you and your background"?

    The only comments on your character have been from others, I might add, and they are more to do with the way you have dodged answering anything, refused to provide any backup to your claims, ignored arguments put forth by other members (who were using established history to counter your idea), and so on. If you're unsure about why you're being addressed the way you are, look to the way you've conducted yourself.

    You presented the idea. You were immediately met by posts that demonstrated what was thought of that idea on face value (ie not very much). Those of us that were being more constructive about it wanted to know why you thought this. And yes, you were presenting it, not as a question of possibility, but as something that you were stating was fact, so we wanted to know what evidence you had. You might have only thought you were asking for opinions, but what you were asking for opinions on invites the questioning.

    And, once more, we weren't saying that your idea isn't good because you suck (at martial arts), we were saying that there is no support for your idea that has been presented, and there are questions as to how you would be able to have access to the types of research materials needed to come up with, and support, such a claim. In fact, I don't think anyone here has even implied what type of martial artist you are, except for you. My comments on your relative rank is based in knowing the structure of Koryu (and Koryu-like... I really don't believe that Daito Ryu is Koryu) systems, where you don't get access to certain information until you are at a certain level. Not that you weren't good, just that you hadn't reached a level where such things would be there for you to access.

    You can study the martial arts (the physical methods) without knowing the language, but if you're researching the history, particularly combined with the histories of other arts, other cultures, other countries, over a long period of time, you're going to need to look to the contemporary texts, should they exist, in which case, yes, you need to know the language. The Biblical scholarly argument is really not the same thing, you know. But, for the record, serious biblical scholars (which is really where you are placing yourself here, not the local priest reading from the Bible on a Sunday morning service) do study the relevant languages, cultures, contexts, and more. Additionally, those more "lay" preachers who are in agreement with the more scholarly researchers really doesn't mean anything here, as you'd find that they are coming to the same agreement more out of the way they were taught, rather than by independent research.

    Relying on other peoples research is not the same thing as coming up with your own. And I'm really doubting you have much clue as to what the people who author books on other cultures have behind them... I'd be interested in some examples, if you would.

    See, now, here's a big part of why I find this so hard to swallow. If the Daito Ryu's claimed history is provable, prove it. No-one has so far. Takeda Sokaku didn't, his son Takeda Tokimune has stated that he believes it to be as old as he was taught, but so far no-one has been able to demonstrate anything that proves that the art pre-dates Takeda Sokaku. No-one. But you, as a junior member of a split off group, and no longer even a member of that, not speaking or reading the language, who got the majority of your training at seminars, can prove it? Really?

    Go on, then. Put the doubters of Daito Ryu's Koryu status to rest.
     
  5. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    er, actually, for the record, it was I who first brought up Mr. Popkin by name....of course, we'd both heard all of this before, you from a little less than halfway around the world....:lol:
     
  6. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    Ha, cool, you get the credit, Elder!
     
  7. docflagen

    docflagen White Belt

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    Seriously, even Okamoto, while reading my hiden mokuroku(which contains the supposed lineage) showed many multi generational gaps in the lineage.

    It is possible that yoshimitsu was credited with something familial, but I have no evidence that Daitoryu predates Takeda, even with the lineage in my hand.

    On the other hand, who cares, it is some serious stuff in the hands of a qualified practitioner.

    Take care,

    Howard123
     
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