Discussion in 'The Great Debate' started by jasonbrinn, Jun 7, 2012.
sorry double post do to weird internet connection at the moment.
You made a bad assumption, that's fine. I trained the way everyone trains. Okamoto sensei has many schools and travels around to all of them (at least until recently - the man is 87). All of the schools get direct training from him but he is not present everyday at any of them.
Again - this is how Daito ryu is and has always been taught. Anything outside of this manner is more the exception than the historical rule. I in fact trained 2-3 times a week at a minimum and went around and gave demos to MANY schools when I wasn't doing regular daily training or seminars.
I was with Okamoto sensei from his first arrival here until very recently when he scaled back his traveling due to age and health. I trained with Okamoto sensei directly for 13 years on a schedule much more ambitious than most BJJ schools (which mostly teach this way until very recently as well). Okamoto was my ONLY teacher as there are NO other teachers in the Roppokai but him. The Roppokai does have seniors who lead classes when sensei is away and I did have a senior that I was under that lived in New York. Oddly enough I was training with Okamoto sensei before my senior was and I lead my group in Raleigh, North Carolina. So, I am not sure what you want from me here or what you expect - Okamoto sensei was my direct teacher for 13 years (maybe not at the weekly frequency that you like but the facts are this) to which he awarded me a 2nd dan. Your opinion is that I "did not" study driectly and your opinion is your entitlement as well as wrong factually speaking.
Agreed. Sorry but I have been a little sensitive online lately and that is something that I am trying to work on. After looking back the video was quite funny and I understand when someone brings something forth new and different it is quite usual to have it taken roughly. I look forward to changing your opinion about this and some other things in the future hopefully friend.
Going back to the OP. I think any commonality seen in Tai Chi and Daito Ryu is probably more of an example of convergent evolution than any direct contact/lineage.
In other words both arts developed similar ideas completely separately, it happens.
For the record I have no claim to any training or historical credibility in either art, just an interested reader.
That is the ONLY viable possibility at this point and any other alleged link is pure fantasy.
If Isaac Newton and Gottfried Leibniz can come up with Calculus at roughly the same time coming up with martial systems that look similar is HIGHLY likely.
Could be, of course, I don't have enough Daito-ryu to say one way or the other.
On the other hand, Morihei Ueshiba expressed definite Chinese influence in his speech and writings - I've written a little about it in my blog (for example this link to the Liu Tao), and he got it from somewhere.
Ellis talked about it at length in "Hidden in Plain Sight".
It shouldn't come as any surprise, there was a constant cultural influence and exchange from China throughout the years - it would be more surprising, IMO, if there were no influence at all.
All japanese express definite Chinese influence in his speech and writings, can you say Kanji, so the fact that Morihei Ueshiba did comes as no surprise.
Yes - but his language is specific to certain topics.
If I were an author writing in English then just saying that I'm writing in a German influenced language would not be enough to show an influence from Faust on my work.
On the other hand, if my work included numerous quotes and paraphrases from the Faust legend, then the conversation might be a little different.
Oh, I know-back in the late 80's and early 90's, I attended daito ryu seminars of Kondo and Yonezawa shihan. Of course, I trained at least twice a week in the basement of a church, with Miguel Ibarra and Roy Goldberg, so I'd say that my daito ryu training came directly from them.
Po-tay-toe. Po-tahh-toe, I guess.... :lol:
Oh, yeah. I know Howard-I'm from New York myself. :lol:
Yes that person was my senior out of technicality for a period of time but he was not my teacher nor did he have anything to do with my training. I can honestly say that that person taught me nothing of martial value. And an additional point is that due to that person's "leadership" I actually got my shodan twice in Daito ryu - having had to start over from white belt so the 2nd dan I have is after having gone from white to black 2 times!
Yes, so you had your teachers and I had mine - yours you mentioned and my teacher was Okamoto sensei. When Okamoto sensei was not around I trained what he taught me with my students and that is how it was. Now just as Okamoto sensei told me long ago would happen I no longer train with him directly but rather train what he taught me and make the techniques my own just like Okamoto sensei instructed me to do so.
So now, have I answered your questions about me personally enough to justify hearing your points on a daito-tai chi connection yet? Or do you still have more personal questions for me?
It seems strange that you entertained a Mikkyo connection back in 2002 for Daito yet this is such a huge jump?
Since you seem to not have read or simply are ignoring my last posts dealing with "historical" dates and people that makes what you’re saying a bit hard to believe let me simply say this
Yes, yes it is a huge jump...insurmountable actually.... to be even more blunt...there is no connection beyond an incredibly recent one that you got from one of your teachers who also studied some form of Taiji you referred to as Yang but again did not answer my questions on that either so I really don't know if it is truly Yang style or not
Bottom-line there is no historical connection between Taijiquan and Daito ryu and there is absolutly nothing that you have posted that would even make me slightly consider otherwise
There are a myriad of things in Japanese culture that come from China, Zen being one of those, and the fact that Morihei Ueshiba or anyone from Japan can show a Chinese influence does not surprise me even if you through in a lot of direct quotes from China.... this still does not prove a direct connection. However there are, I belevie, historical records of Morihei Ueshiba in Northern Korea, Northern China and Mongolia. That is what proves a connection...however it does not prove (and I know you did not say this on MT) a connection to any Chinese Martial Art
A direct connection, as in "Ueshiba studied XXX in China"? I'm not alleging that at all - some do, but I think that the evidence is against it.
I think that there is a case to be made, however, that many of the core principles had their origins in China, as opposed to being original creations of either Ueshiba, Takeda or Shinra Saburō Minamoto (depending on who you're talking to).
You do know that we basically were just making fun of the very idea on that thread.....ten years ago, Jesus! :lfao:
You know, you write a book, and on the jacket cover there's all these personal details, typically-a mini bio or curriculum vitae-some sort of summation of who you are, and, in this case, your training-either as a researcher or martial artist, something that qualifies you to assert such a hypothesis. As such, my questions aren't personal, as much as they are seeking some sort of daito-ryu background.
Others, more qualified than I, of course, have looked at the basis of one of your assertions, and found it lacking. I have already made my only point on the assertion of a daito ryu/tai chi connection: that there isn't any, but the most tenuous one.
In any case, I do have one more relevant question-whether or not you find it "personal" is, of course, immaterial-your answer, on the other hand, might tell us a great deal:
What does Okamoto sensei, the man you trained directly under for 13 years, say about you research and hypothesis?
Jason, do you read and speak Japanese and Chinese?
:uhyeah: GREAT question and the answer to it.....is found in the book! What I will say now is that my teacher always encouraged me to be my best and go forward with what he taught me.
elder999 I fully appreciate and understand your questions (all of them) and don't blame you a bit for asking them nor doubting the assertion. I honestly never set out to make the assertion myself, it came about as a result of the research for the book on what I learned from Okamoto sensei. The book is called "Natural Aiki" and I would be honored if you would be willing to read it pre-release as a reviewer....?
I also plan to get Yukio Nishida's response for the book as well - the reason for this is revealed in the book to great detail. The book actually includes all my notes over the 13 years of training with Okamoto sensei and the ultimate "secret" I found behind "creating aiki" and applying it. The reason I set out to write the book was simply to have a record to remember it all and as a gift to my family (who supported me through the years) and to my students (past and future). At the end I felt the book should be put out to honor the generous person and incredible teacher that Okamoto sensei is as well as honor all the people who helped me learn what I did and the time they all put into it.
The book is not in anyway an effort to promote myself nor make me look "smart" (a fact the book is quick and replete in pointing out).
Lastly, the book is mine - my ideas, my training, my revelations and my life of 13 years training with Okamoto sensei. Okamoto sensei himself NEVER told me nor suggested there was any kind of link as the one I suggest in the History portion of the book and this thread.
No Frank, not in the least. I am relying on the great help of friends that do. Are you interested in looking at a few things to help out or just curious about me?
I have enough trouble trying to articulate myself in one language. I was(am) curious if your sources were in the original languages and of appropriate age to be considered primary research.
can you say denial...sure you can.
There is no connection...period.
You produce a book and give it to your students saying there is and you are simply lying to them.
lol...I bet your family line is from the group that said "the world is flat, period, if you sail that direction you will simply fall off the planet"
i appreciate your belief and passion but come on.
I teach my students to think for themselves and test EVERYTHING. Maybe I have a quote you might like "let what works be the judgd for whats right." Why not let facts and common sense by the judge of whats right. I also think it was Mark Twain who said "the facts often have little to do with the truth" or something like that. What I will do with the book is paint a factual picture putting people of knowledge with other people sharing these types of things and then show remarkable similarities in the things performed and a timeline to tie the nice little bow on it. I will leave people's beliefs to them.
Oh, and I NEVER lie.
Would it be safe to state that many Japanese arts had influences from China
That said, how is Zen (Chan Buddhism) link to Tai Ji (Taoist)123
Separate names with a comma.