cutting punch

[Transk53]

Maybe need to change your desire to always be right first

Actual fighters are always right, it is the choices that count.

 

[guy b.]

I did address that "above the shoulder" at a couple of points. If you don't punch very high or very far (or, particularly, both), then the elbow can easily stay below the shoulder. I can see how by only punching from a near distance you'd be able to keep your elbow below your shoulder even when striking to the head of someone your own size. If they are significantly taller, you'd have to abandon hitting the head, but that's doable.

That's VT!

No you wouldn't have to abandon hitting the head.

As for not ascending from the horizontal plane, when I see an example of an actual punch, I'll discuss that further. The "experiment" is not a punch - just a movement of the arm purposely designed to keep the elbow down. It lacks anything approaching punching power.

I'm guessing you have not spent any time attampting to develop punching power in this way, so why comment?

 

[guy b.]

You've given nothing to show that it's at all possible given the geometry. You just keep saying the same thing over and over, without providing any evidence

Use brain. Stop assuming you thought of everything already

 

[Transk53]

That's VT!

No you wouldn't have to abandon hitting the head.



I'm guessing you have not spent any time attampting to develop punching power in this way, so why comment?

You can't develop punching power, you just hone what you are born with. Irrespective of whatever technique.

 

[guy b.]

Yeah, I'm trying it sitting here at my desk and it seems to work as you describe it. I just wish you could have explained it so clearly at the beginning rather than getting involved in that long back and forth with the other guys. It was frustrating to read, even as a bystander.

It is also frustrating to be trolled on a VT forum by people who don't do VT

GP Seymour: no VT experience but always 100% sure he is correct about VT. On what basis?

NI: obvious non-wing chun troll who thinks elbow pops up above shoulder and doesn't recognise faak sau. Would be funny if self-confessed wing chun practitioners didn't buy it, but they lap it up for reasons of personal grievance and hurt pride. It is like watching a slow motion car crash with nobody applying the brakes

It is the sheer slowness, combativeness, and inability to follow an argument that makes sharing info here difficult. A bit more trust and a bit less hubris would go a long way

 

[Juany118]

Elbow over shoulder as NI is rising elbow. Elbow pops up = mistake, not VT

Ummm my main point throughout was simply when I punch straight, while the elbow remains pointed down it will rise in the intervening space in relation to what you are standing on, even while it remains oriented down, kinda like in this video of WSL, which was chosen for shortness not video quality.

The only thing I would say is that while rare there are times where the elbow may have to rise over the shoulder. That isn't preferred for any punching system, this is not a WC/VT exclusive and it kinda kills me that anyone is saying "I can't believe this is a VT forum" when this is a rule for punching period as it results in a less efficient transfer of power for any punch.

That said if you get stuck in a "never ever ever ever ever can you do something" to much you are begging for issues. I tend to say "there are Laws and then their are Rules." Laws should not be broken under any circumstance, a Rule however can be bent if the circumstances require it.

Forget a size difference between a man and a woman. Here is a photo from a period of aggressive patrols we did a few years ago after a homicide (yes we tend to play "officer friendly" when the people we stop are just being silly 20 somethings)

now imagine if the officer @ middle front was fighting someone of the size of the officer standing behind him. He might well find himself forced to have that elbow go over the shoulder, even if only a little bit, unless the taller subject is stupid and basically bends forward so he can be punched in the face. You will try to compensate, perhaps get in closer so that the angle of the elbow can allow the fist to make contact without going that high, try to set him up so he drops lower excreta. In the end though you may damn well have to see that elbow go a tad over the shoulder and WC is not so inflexible as to deny this reality imo.

The minute a system says "thought shalt not do this" in so draconian a fashion it stops being a combat art and becomes performance art imo. Slowly but surely, saddly, that is what WC/VT is becoming since the number of Sifu's who use/used the art in real world "anger" are becoming fewer and fewer. Without that experience rules for training become inviolate law and in doing so basically beg for the student to end up in a hurt locker.

 

[guy b.]

it kinda kills me that anyone is saying "I can't believe this is a VT forum" when this is a rule for punching period as it results in a less efficient transfer of power for any punch.

Take it up with Nobody Important who suggested that wing chun punches are done this way.

 

[Juany118]

Take it up with Nobody Important who suggested that wing chun punches are done this way.

I didn't interpret it that way. I saw him saying, in a more brief version than I admittedly, that there are times when you have to and that the system permits this, even if it is not optimal.

 

[Flying Crane]

some of you guys shouldn't even be on the same planet with each other, much less interacting on an Internet forum.

 

[guy b.]

I didn't interpret it that way. I saw him saying, in a more brief version than I admittedly, that there are times when you have to and that the system permits this, even if it is not optimal.

You interpreted wrong, presumably due to bias and inability to ever admit error

This is what he said:

Doesn't matter if you punch up or down. To use urban slang, the wagina of the elbow will always come up to align the bones of the arm. It's a hinge joint. Unless their elbow is opposite of every other human, it's impossible for it to remain.

At high level it will be wrist at highest point and shoulder at lowest. At mid let all three will be same height and at low level shoulder will be highest and wrist at lowest.

NI is saying explicitly that the elbow pops up in the wing chun punch, and that triangle not maintained, which is crazy from the point of view any kind of wing chun

 

[Juany118]

You interpreted wrong, presumably due to bias and inability to ever admit error

This is what he said:



NI is saying explicitly that the elbow pops up in the wing chun punch, and that triangle not maintained, which is crazy from the point of view any kind of wing chun

well, and this will be my last thing I suspect. There he is speaking only about how the elbow operates as a hinge joint, it has nothing to do with WC as an individual art.

In essence the elbow, while oriented "down", "rises" perpendicularly to the direction of the punch as the fist gets further from the shoulder. You can be punching "down" and the shoulder will be the highest point, if "up" high enough the shoulder will be the lowest (if you go to full extension), etc. However regardless of the angle the elbow moves "up" perpendicular to the direction of the punch.

That quote doesn't say "WC/VT does this, it says "this is how an elbow works. That's it and nothing more. Unless you can produce something that changes the context that is how I read that from the initial post.

 

[guy b.]

There he is speaking only about how the elbow operates as a hinge joint

That quote doesn't say "WC/VT does this, it says "this is how an elbow works. That's it and nothing more. Unless you can produce something that changes the context that is how I read that from the initial post.

Nope, he is specifically talking about popping up the elbow and flattening the triangle in wing chun in answer to you talking about wing chun, i.e. complete nonsense.

His post quotes yours below:

Maybe the fact is missed that if you are average height striking someone in the face of similar height, your wrist will be higher than the shoulder, because well the head is higher than the shoulder, is somehow missed? Either that or he doesn't think WC takes head shots

Doesn't matter if you punch up or down.To use urban slang, the wagina of the elbow will always come up to align the bones of the arm. It's a hinge joint. Unless their elbow is opposite of every other human, it's impossible for it to remain.

At high level it will be wrist at highest point and shoulder at lowest. At mid let all three will be same height

This answer about WC is completely wrong on all counts.

Elbow popped up to align arm bones in wing chun punch? No

High level punch will have shoulder at lowest point? No

Mid level punch shoulder, elbow and wrist will be on same level? No

100% nonsense, not a WC practitioner

 

[Juany118]

Nope, he is specifically talking about popping up the elbow and flattening the triangle in wing chun in answer to you talking about wing chun, i.e. complete nonsense.

His post quotes yours below:

I posted the photo I posted to clarify the circumstance when such a punch is engaged, since my description of the 5' female I used to work with was ignored.. Ergo you say, in a fight for your life, if the size difference between those two is the fact, your don't punch above the shoulder? You in essence say "nope, not hitting the target that will have the most effect to save my life because...well because." There is no adaption to circumstance, to the size of your opponent?

You seem to be doing your typical "focus on individual statements ignoring context." This really was my last response.

 

[anerlich]

It is also frustrating to be trolled on a VT forum by people who don't do VT

Yeah. I only want to be trolled by VT practitioners.

 

[LFJ]

Jeezlouise! Juany just cannot stand to be wrong, can he?! What an ego. Just drop it already.

 

[Nobody Important]

Nope, he is specifically talking about popping up the elbow and flattening the triangle in wing chun in answer to you talking about wing chun, i.e. complete nonsense.

His post quotes yours below:





This answer about WC is completely wrong on all counts.

Elbow popped up to align arm bones in wing chun punch? No

High level punch will have shoulder at lowest point? No

Mid level punch shoulder, elbow and wrist will be on same level? No

100% nonsense, not a WC practitioner

The remark was in the context of how the arm operates as Juany said. It was a generalization about the action of punching. At no point did I ever stress VT punching specifically. It was used to illustrate the mechanics of the arm in reference to striking at different levels of height with full extension. Specifically, it was about a high level inner gate strike, that without full extension of the arm, wouldn't work. The idea that full extension of WC punches was commonplace in YCWWC, was superimposed by you & LFJ as a point of contention to normal WC punching. I never said it was. I also stated several times that the inner gate strike could be performed with other actions, such as, Biu Sau or yes, even Faak Sau, both of which in YCWWC use full extension of the arm with the elbow higher than shoulder. The discussion was never relegated on my part to the exclusive use of your VT punch. I don't know WSLVT, so how could I reference your punching method. I only used PB and WSL images to illustrate, from a YCWWC point of view, how these same generalized mechanics of the arm are present, not in the manner of how you in WSLVT use them. And for the record, at :15 in the PB video I still believe it to be a straight punch. Now you can argue about elbow position as giving insight into it being a Faak Sau, but the same action would apply to Sat Sau, Biu Sau or even a Pin Jeung. The elbow position and in out action would still be the same, without a hand present to definitively make that decision is conjecture in my opinion. If you say it is a Faak Sau then OK, but I fail how you can prove it without a shadow of a doubt based on an elbow position that is present in other technuques, the hand shape would be absolute confirmation. Snce it isn't there I'm left to form my own opinion based on what I observe & understand.

 

[Marnetmar]

Jeezlouise! Juany just cannot stand to be wrong, can he?! What an ego. Just drop it already.

You and I both know this is blatant projection.

 

[LFJ]

The idea that full extension of WC punches was commonplace in YCWWC, was superimposed by you & LFJ as a point of contention to normal WC punching.

Aligning your shoulder, elbow, and fist was part of your basic description of gate punching way back on page 2, at the very start of this thread.

It was used to illustrate the mechanics of the arm in reference to striking at different levels of height with full extension. Specifically, it was about a high level inner gate strike, that without full extension of the arm, wouldn't work.

If your high level inner gate strike won't work without full extension, you are changing the way you perform the punch in response to the opponent's arm level, extending further to pop the elbow up and wedge their arm out.

It's reactive arm-chasing.

The fact that you explained pivoting to this side or that depending on which arm is incoming further illustrates your action as a deliberate response to a specific punch.

I understand you are trying to deflect and punch with the same action, but you are chasing to do it with large deliberate actions. These are workarounds for missing SNT elbow.

The elbow position and in out action would still be the same, without a hand present to definitively make that decision is conjecture in my opinion.

His elbow doesn't go in and out like a straight punch. It is entirely different. That you can't recognize it without a hand shows you don't understand the elbow.

If you say it is a Faak Sau then OK, but I fail how you can prove it without a shadow of a doubt based on an elbow position that is present in other technuques, the hand shape would be absolute confirmation. Snce it isn't there I'm left to form my own opinion based on what I observe & understand.

Elbow position not the same as in punching. Go learn VT.

 

[LFJ]

The video I linked shows how to do a "standard" WC straight punch. As far as I can recall the action of the punch (in terms of arm movement) is consistent across all the YM lineages. There are differences in terms of preferred stance, but the "punch" itself is the same.

The Lui Ming Fai video?

Then that is case-closed on the original issue.

SNT elbow not universal in YM lineages.

 

[LFJ]

You and I both know this is blatant projection.

He's hanging onto the last thread so that he can walk away from this being right about something.

He wants to find the most extreme of cases to prove his point. But he's still wrong.

I will go him one up and say that even if I were doing a freaking Shoryuken!, SNT elbow would still apply.