Close Quarter Knife Throws

Discussion in 'Knife Arts' started by Christopher Adamchek, Feb 13, 2019.

  1. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yes, it really is. It's silly.
     
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  2. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    Thank goodness for that!
     
  3. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    You may mock it, but there are definitely people who carry a sjambok (a kind of whip) as a self-defense tool. From what I've read, they have been known to loop it through their belt loops on their pants or run it through the sleeves and across their back of their shirt.

    Peace favor your sword (mobile)
     
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  4. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    You just seem to be saying the same thing over and over, Bill. You say it's different, but haven't said how you see that difference.
     
  5. pgsmith

    pgsmith Master of Arts

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    That wasn't funny ... not funny at all! :)

    Please point out where anyone mentioned "stuffing their pockets with red pepper". Exaggerate much? I know people right now that live in areas where pepper spray should be carried, but can't afford to buy it themselves.

    You are welcome to beat the drum of your suburban existence, but there is a very wide world out there with a great many societies where things you consider "ludicrous" may actually be necessary survival skills. It may be ludicrous for you, but I've been in a number of areas here in the good old USA where any sort of minor advantage can mean the difference between living and dying.
     
  6. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I just saw this post and I thought the same thing. Why would I throw my knife? This is especially true if I'm already at close range.

    ha ha ha.. Again we think a like. This is my weapon of choice when weapons aren't allowed. I use the stone because they are solid. So when someone ask. What are these for. I just stay Stress Balls, used to help relieve stress. I guess I'm not the only one that thinks like this.. Awesome

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    An 80 years old man walks on the street with 2 Baoding balls in his hand. A 20 years old robber tries to grab the watch from the old man. The old man throws his Baoding ball and cracks the young man's skull.

    In the court, the old man says, "This young guy tries to take my watch. My Baoding ball came out of my hand and hit on his head. His death was 100% accident.

    The nice thing about the Baoding ball are:

    - It's legal to carry.
    - There will be no prove that you have intention to use it to hurt anybody.
     
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  8. Christopher Adamchek

    Christopher Adamchek Blue Belt

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    Except i did give some solid reasons for this range whether they are liked or not it can still be useful.

    In other regards to voluntary disarming yourself. I teach my students "when your weapon becomes a hindrance, abandon it." As people can often fight for control of something that isn't helpful. Let go and continue the fight, or go for their weapon instead.
     
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  9. wanderingstudent

    wanderingstudent Yellow Belt

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  10. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Please do not try this defense. The actual defense is "he was threatening my life." If he wasn't threatening your life then do not use deadly force against him. It really is that simple.

    MartialTalk seems to be a terrible place to get legal advice. Particularly about self-defense. 75% of what I see here is wrong, and appears to be based on popular myth and hearsay.
     
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  11. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I've been taught that a weapon only becomes a hindrance in two situations
    • When the person is not skilled enough
    • When the attacker is more skilled with dealing with the weapon
    • When a weapon is being used outside of it's range

    I'm not sure how your knife will become a hindrance at close range if you know how to use it. Releasing a knife, for example, dropping it and catching it in the other hand that's free, is not the same as throwing it at your target.

    2 people fighting with knifes. At which point does it become a good idea to throw your knife?


    Releasing a weapon is not the same as throwing one.
     
  12. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    There is no law against having massage balls, healing chrystals, or baoding balls. 100% legal in the US.

    Proving intention would be impossible to deny. If it's thrown at someone then the intent is to hurt, If you drop it in a sock then the intent is to hurt someone. The intent isn't the problem here in a legal defense. The reasoning behind the intent. If I am attacked and I feel as if I was in enough danger to where I felt it was necessary, then I would own the intent. I would actually have to own it in order to claim self-defense.

    What would be really difficult is prove that you are using picking baoding balls as a weapon of choice or are you actually using them as a calming tool. This is difficult because it can be both When a person is not attacked it is used as a calming tool. When a person is attacked then it's used as "the next best thing" no different than being stabbed with a sharp pencil, choked out with a belt, or piece of clothing.

    My legal defense shouldn't be based on if I intended to hurt my attacker. It should be, I hurt my attacker because he was attacking me. Intent to kill is something totally different and has it's own legal definitions to meet.

    The chances that throwing a rock that's the size of a massage ball at a person would kill them is not highly likely. What it will do is give you an opportunity to is increase distance or decrease your attacking range while the person is trying to avoid the rock.. Aiming at the head will cause the most disorientation, but is not always the easiest target to hit. Can it crack the skull? only if you have enough weight in the stone and enough power in the throw. Moving the head can be the difference between solid hit and glance.

    The chances of me killing someone with one is realistically very slim. Even when Wang stated it I had my doubts about the killing part. Can it happen? yeah if a 1% chance is a possibility. While I wouldn't take legal advice from MT, one take comfort that being killed with a baoding ball would be very slim. It will hurt if get hit with one in the face, or head, but it's probably the least of your troubles, if the thrower decides to follow up on the throw with some strikes. Or another boading ball.

    I've been hit in the face with a lacrosse ball and impacts like that turn off the light for a few seconds and it's very disorienting. Killing risk? no. Concussion risk? definitely yes.
     
  13. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    Posting and telling people that you carry baoding balls to use as weapons seems to imply intent to use baoding balls as weapons. :D
     
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  14. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Legal advice offered here: defending yourself from prosecution for seriously injuring or killing someone, if the DA feels you acted unreasonably, even if you feel you acted in legitimate self defense, can become a very difficult, expensive, scary, and stressful endeavor. Nothing is simple or cut-and-dried.

    So, tread with extreme caution. And don’t assume anything in your favor.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019
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  15. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    But there is nothing wrong with that. It's not a weapon until it's used as one. I could say the same thing about carrying a pencil or wearing a necktie.

    People carry guns for the purpose of using it as a weapon. The biggest difference is that a baoding ball is not classified as weapon. It's not a weapon until you use it as one. If I throw an object at someone with the intent to harm then, then I have just used it as a weapon regardless of what I admit in public or not and that's what the courts will look at as well.

    The thing I wouldn't do is try to play innocent that a baoding ball somehow slipped from my possession and accidentally cracked someone's skull. You would be better of just being honest and say that you threw it at your attacker in hopes to create distance or to stun or delay the attacker long enough to escape or cause the attacker to stop attacking. The fact that it cracked his skull and he died is a fluke and misfortune. You could actually prove this in court and with medical records of people who were struck in the head with rocks that were thrown who didn't die. You could not only prove it that way but you could actually show how difficult it is to do such a thing and be successful at it.

    People who were hit in the face with something traveling faster than most people could throw a baoding ball. If you had one, then this is the idea effect that you hope for. If you land a good shot on your attacker then consider your self lucky, that his arms didn't get in the way and that he was unable to dodge it or deflect it.


    Playing innocent would most likely put you in more legal troubles because now you are trying to hide something. If someone is really attacking you at the point where you fear for your life, then let that be the answer. In court you want to show that your actions were "last resort" actions in defense of the safety of your life or well being. To hit a guy in the face with a baoding ball just because you are arguing will get you thrown in jail.
     
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  16. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    The only thing I wouldn't want to post is me training with the weapon that I might use lol. If I'm in court I don't want to be seen as some highly skilled weapon fighter. I wouldn't put a video of me killing rabbits and flying birds with a massage ball. lol. I would always want that skill and ability to be in question. I would want the "Kung Fu Master" defense (talk a lot about being expert fighter but can't actually fight) lol.

    While you can't assume that something is in your favor you can always position yourself for a better outcome. If I'm 80's years old and cracked and attackers skull with a baoding ball, then I'm going for the "age defense" How long does someone actually think an 80 year old person will last in a physical attack from someone who is 30-50 years younger.. Damn right I threw baoding ball. I would have been crazy not to. lol
     
  17. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Agreed. These things on the internet, they have a way of being found.

    Making statements like “ I would just crack his skull with a baoding ball and then claim self defense because I’m old” have a way of coming back to haunt a person.
     
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  18. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    That's not necessarily true.

    If you carry an object with the primary intent on using it as a weapon then in the eyes of many courts it can be defined as a weapon even before it is used as one.

    That does not necessarily make it illegal but just something to be aware of.
     
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  19. Christopher Adamchek

    Christopher Adamchek Blue Belt

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    Thats three, but all reasonable. And the third one can happen fairly often regardless of skill, and reasons why warrior would have secondary weapons such a knives, or grappling skills - in the instance of sword fighting for example that gets too tangled as close range.

    Also my weapon hindrance and voluntary disarmment was separate from the technique in this video (as i stated with "in other regards")

    And ive already explained reasons, such as not quite being at the close range needed to make contact with the knife on the opponent, this could help close that gap. I did list multiple examples if you want to read my other comments.
     
  20. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I think people really get stuck on the intent to use as a weapon too much. If I have not attacked you or threaten to attack you you with the baoding ball then there is no way or reason I would be in court for baoding balls or massage balls.

    If I have threaten to hit you, or attack you with baoding balls then it becomes a legal matter that I need to be concerned with. For example, I have already made it clear that I sometimes carry stone massage balls for the purpose of a weapon. No police or law enforcement in the U.S. is going to arrest me for it. There's not law in the U.S. against it.

    Baoding balls and stone massage balls are not classified as weapons which is why you can walk in schools, churches, and government buildings with them. There is no law against it. Pardon my the pun but I could play with those things right in plain site of a police officer and nothing will happen. Not one court date.

    However, the moment I use one as a weapon is the exact moment I better have valid reason for using one as a weapon. Just because I have a pair of Baoding balls with me that day, doesn't mean that my reason for them carrying them that day was to use it as a weapon. Now if I leave a trail of bodies on the ground with skulls cracked by a baoding ball then yes, now you put me under the jail and take my statement that I carry them as weapon as something to arrest me by.

    Other than that what you are looking at is
    1. The probability that I'm attacked on a day I have my baoding ball
    2. The probability that I was able to get a clean shot where I could throw it hard enough to crack someone's skull and then have them die.
    3. The reality in which I would throw a rock at someone. What was the situation. Did my attacker have a knife? What my attacker significantly larger and stronger than me.
    4. What was the likely hood of me being able to defend myself considering my fitness and age.
    5. Did I attack the person or did the person attack me?
    6. Did I throw the baoding ball with the intent to kill? or was I just defending myself?
    7. What happened after I threw the baoding ball. Did the attacker continue to attack?

    There is just so many things that unless you are a criminal ninja who has perfected the art of killing others with a baoding ball who attacked someone out of the blue. The fact that a massage ball or baoding ball was in my possession and my intent for having it is just totally irrelevant.

    If I threw it at my attacker then by nature of use, my intent was to use it as a weapon regardless or why I originally had it. Which is why I wouldn't use the "Oh it slipped out of my pants pocket and broke my attacker's skull bad enough to where he died." defense.

    Had I not been attacked and in fear for my well being then I would have never used it as a weapon. But since I was attacked "It was the next best thing" to aid me in my self preservation. Especially if my attacker has a knife.
     

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