Close Quarter Knife Throws

Discussion in 'Knife Arts' started by Christopher Adamchek, Feb 13, 2019.

  1. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Here is a more definitive source, from olaf's saga. Around page 195 they make a direct reference to spjall being known for axe-throwing.
    Olaf's Saga
     
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  2. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah, reading it through that's how it reads. Still a bit tough for me to tell from the translation I found (Post 60)
     
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  3. Rat

    Rat 2nd Black Belt

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    So where the native americans. :p Pretty sure the standard tactic was to have a backup and throw it or just rush who ever you threw it at and wrestle them. (unless you plan to run away but thats a cowards course of action! :p)

    I would dispute how sneaky it was though.
     
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  4. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    No clue about native americans, but for Vikings I havent seen any evidence that this was a tactic they used.
     
  5. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    So I take it you're retracting the "mad keen" claim, since that would require axe throwing to be a whole lot more common than one guy who did it as a last resort.
     
  6. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Nope. Standing by that.
     
  7. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    I can't prove a negative, you post a vid of it skewering someone
     
  8. Rat

    Rat 2nd Black Belt

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    As in not just a opportunistic attack? It would kind of be like throwing your spear at someone when they don't expect you to.

    I wouldn't dispute some did throw their weapons for what ever apparent reason.


    As for NA's, its pretty commonly cited and i think some still keep tomahawk throwing as a tradition. Think most had knives they could use if they threw their axe anyway.
     
  9. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    Carrying knives with the express purpose of throwing them in a self defense situation is delusional and stupid. If a person walks around so equipped, they are in need of mental health assistance.
     
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  10. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    I don't know about mental assistance, but I can't see any of them being accepted to mensa....
     
  11. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    I'd love to see evidence that it isn't.

    There are a lot of places on the human body that are fairly close to the surface and/or are easily reached with a bare minimum of penetration. The lungs can be perforated by as little as 3" of penetration on some people. The kidneys even less on some folks. Even beyond that, many muscles can be incapacitated with a minimum of penetration and joints can be easily damaged with minimum penetration as well.

    I recommend this book:
    Essential Anatomy for Healing and Martial Arts

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    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  12. wab25

    wab25 Black Belt

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    This got me curious... So as long as no one else was going to poke around youtube, I did. I found this video, of a guy first testing knifes and axes with ballistic gel... then at the end, he puts racks of ribs over the gel, and retests a few of knives and one axe. Lets just say, I don't want someone throwing a KaBar at my chest...

     
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  13. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    But fitting a thrown knife between ribs would be very difficult

    [​IMG]
     
  14. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    I've done a fair amount of "test cutting" on meat and various non-meat ("protective" items such as heavy clothing and jackets). Skin and heavy cloth will sometimes, imperfectly, somewhat protect against cuts. The edge geometry and sharpness can make a difference.

    With thrusts, on the other hand, if the blade is even moderately sharp and pointy, it just goes in, often almost like there's nothing there. Unless the point actually hits a rib and digs into the bone, it will frequently be "funneled" between the ribs. When I first started doing tests I marveled at how easily the thrusts penetrated with minimal effort. The scariest thrusts were with rapier blades & stiletto blades because it felt like stabbing air and large/sharp bowie blades because of the gigantic wound channel.

    Anyone who is really interested in knowing how this stuff actually performs would do well to go to the butcher counter and get a few sides of skin-on pork ribs, or at least just ribs. Hang them from a frame or tree branch and do cuts and thrusts. You will respect your blades (or sharpen them).

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
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  15. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    Knife throwing is fun.
    Knife throwing in a self defensive situation is a very low percentage action as to causing immediate incapacitating damage. Can it happen, absolutely, but is a low percentage action. Can be ok as to a momentary diversion for creating distance/escaping or to rush in from behind. If creating distance/escaping you have now given up your weapon unless you have another. If used as a diversion to enter in on you have again given up your weapon unless you have already or are in the process of deploying another weapon you are not weapon less and have a low percentage of deploying another.
     
  16. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Look at that pic again. At least 30% of the area is is not covered by ribs. And my experience in test cutting with meat indicates that points will sometimes skate off of ribs and go home anyway. And that's not counting when it is forceful enough to splinter off of the edge of a rib or just break it.

    Understand that I'm not arguing for throwing the knife. I don't really like it. But I am saying that it's not as stupidly ineffective as a lot of people seem to think.

    A bigger concern to me is how freaking long it takes even a mortal wound to become "mortal." A few minutes bleeding out is forever because dying ain't dead! Add to the fact that even an effective wound doesn't necessarily incapacitate the opponent. Damage the bicep or shoulder joint of one arm incapacitates that arm ...but not the other. ...or the legs. The human body has a lot of redundancy built in and, even when mortally wounded, can take a frighteningly long time to die. Ayoob once wrote about a cop who shot a bad guy at point blank range with 00 shot and thought he missed because the dude ran away. Nope. Perp was "dead man walking" and they eventually found him with several of those .33 caliber pellets in his chest. But that was plenty of time for the perp to shoot back had he been so inclined.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
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  17. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    The thrown weapon is a dirt common staple of melee fighting and always has been, inclusive of military engagements, duels, personal combat, and personal self defense.

    Atlat'l, javalins, pilum, thrown darts (the Romans love'd 'em), francisca, throwing clubs (yes, clubs!), chackram, musede, hunga munga, tomahawks (yes, 'hawks), spikes, "stars," shuriken, knives, Kylie, even freaking rocks (sling stones, anyone?).

    Anyone claiming that thrown melee weapons have no place, at least historically speaking, is simply being deliberately ignorant.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
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  18. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    I have two definitive sources for it, including a first person account of judicial combat (essentially a duel) where it happened and a written book by a native who recorded a passed down oral tradition.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
  19. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    well yea, the small knife like the one in the op hardly sticks in and it was thrown over arm, an under arm flick as demonstrated wouldby even manage that
     
  20. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    This mimics my experience test cutting. Ribs make a difference. Blade shape and sharpness makes a difference. But ribs are very often penetrated anyway. Ribs aren't magic armor against a thrust (or a thrown blade).

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     

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