Claims on the Internet.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Disco
I believe you mean well and your trying to have some meaningful input to the discussion, but your tap danceing in a mine field.

Kukkiwon - Main gym in Korea, clearing house for WTF Dan certification. Many Korean Masters can and will issue rank certifications in the particular style they teach. These certifications are recognized internationally. The only thing a Kukkiwon certification does for you is allows you to try for the Olympics. It's stated on their web site that you must be Kukkiwon certified to compete. The ITF based in Canada has no affiliation to the Kukkiwon and their certifications are recognized internationally. AAU now has TKD Dan certification and it too is recognized. There are others, but the main point is that the Kukkiwon, although viewed as the top organization, is not the endall in TKD for recognition. Want a list of other's, go to -------
http://www.martialartsresource.com/Hoshinsool-online/hkdorgs.htm

Politics run amuck within the higher rankings in this country. We saw that last night with the USTW posting. As far as skipping / jumping ranks, it dosen't happen alot, but it does happen and not just at the low levels. I've seen it, but there's no way I could prove it. If I'm not mistaken, the last time I inquired (about 10 yrs ago). Rank up to 4th in America you could test in front of 2 Masters at 6th or above. For 5th Dan and above you had to go to the Kukkiwon to test. If that requirement has changed, then I stand corrected. But at the time, it was in place to reduce the amount of non-koreans seeking higher rankings. Most people could not afford to take the trip and plus the fact, as you pointed out, that any mistake in testing would result in failure. If you had deep pockets, you could go far.

Sorry, getting way to wordy, I'll just leave it here. There's way to much that can be gotten into. Surfice to say, politics + money = bad martial arts feelings.
:asian:

Ummm... Most ITF branches, such as ITF Korea, or ITF USA, and most schools, get their dan certificates from Kukkiwon.

Anyway, on testing fees:
1st degree $100
2nd degree $150
3rd degree $200
4th degree $300
5th degree $400
6th degree $550
7th degree $350
8th degree $400
9th degree $450

I would say the testing fees are reasonable. As for going to Korea to test for high ranks, did you read the requirements? Going to Korea for foreigners are for 8th and 9th dan ONLY, so I don't know what you are talking about. Anyway, for testing for 8th and 9th dan, which are considered VERY HIGH, a group of few, going to Korea should not be a nuisance. People should look at it as an oppourtunity. It's not like you go there for something like a 3rd dan, but I think it's reasonable to go to Korea if you're in a Korean art, or Japan for a Japanese art and so on, if you're testing for what is considered grandmaster status, wouldn't you say?

What do you mean ITF Canada's certificates are known internationally? I don't know about ITF Canada, but most ITF schools in the USA get their certificates from Kukkiwon. Most schools are also affiliated with Moo Duk Kwan, but still get their certificates for TKD (not TSD) from Kukkiwon. If ITF Canada gave its own certificates, I can't see it being more known other than nationally, because an ITF Canada certificate would just be "meh" in Korea, or anywhere for that matter. Many schools would "accept" it meaning they'll let you keep your rank, but that's what you can expect.

 

[MartialArtist]

And if I'm not mistaken, Kukkiwon is for black belt matters only. You need a Kukkiwon BB to compete in those tag sparring competitions... Maybe they are the standard? It goes to the idea of standards again. Unofficial and private standards will just cause confusion, and in many instances, are an easy way to claim a 9th dan. Kukkiwon has more ties with the WTF, but many ITF (which I personally like better as an organization) get their dan certificates from Kukkiwon because it's more widely accepted, and EVERYONE goes through the same requirements.

 

[KennethKu]

I think you mean WTF.

The original ITF would not want to have anything to do with WTF/KuKKiwon any more than WTF/Kukkiwon wants to have anything to do with ITF. Gen Choi was considered a traitor to ROK. ITF certs are NOT issued by Kukkiwon.

Now that there are several ITF's, the situation is a mess. The ITF under Master Choi is considered the legitimate ITF. The one hijacked by a stooge from North Korea is using that ITF to play political footsy with WTF/Kukkiwon.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by SteelShadow
I have seen where some dan tests ranged from 75.00 to 500.00dollars.My question is whats the point of paying such high fees its a rip off.If you have been studying a art for 5 10 or 20 yrs and you are testing for a high dan rank why should they charge you such a high amount.You have already proven your worth and dedication as well as your hard work.I believe the test should be given with little or no cost personaly.I mean what are you realy paying for?.You pay dues every month to train you pay for uniforms equipment and such.So your teacher or his peers have to set thru your testing.Its not worth great amounts of money just for that.If you want to honor them with a gift so be it.But paying hundreds of dollars on top of your already paying dues.And then even having to pay for the belt you earned anyway.Its just another way to line someones pocket in my oppion.My students pay monthly dues and they pay for the gi's.
But there is no charge for a rank test of any level.They earned that test they earned the right to take it.And in MHO its wrong for me to charge them for something they have already earned to begin with.I even pay for there belts.I was just wondering why so many people think its ok to pay hundreds of dollars for a test?

That is one problem I have.

However, current fees aren't really that expensive, and if you do have financial problems, people can let a few things slide.

The biggest problem I have with fees are that schools add their own "charges". I didn't know that the cost of plywood or some cheap wood, a few hours of your life examining your own students, and such amounted to more than $200. A small fee for handling your certificate and such should be paid, but I would never pay over $200 for a small thing. Maybe for a high rank dan testing, but otherwise...

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Disco
I don't think many feel it's OK to pay such high fee's, it's just that it's kind of a catch 22. You spend all that time training as you pointed out and for most people, depending on what part of the country your in, your more than likely stuck in the only game in town. The problem from my viewpoint is primarily found with WTF TKD schools. I'm sure there are other participants drawing from the well, but they took their lead from TKD. Most people being trusting and having no conflicting information available, believe what's being presented to them. It's only when they've been exposed to the other side that they realize they've been taken advantage of. Some don't want to start over somewhere else. Other's just quit, while other's just accept it and continue to pay.
I believe the same way you do, but these schools are getting fat and I don't think their going to change anytime soon.
:asian:

I don't really care for the politics between WTF and ITF and all that. WTF is more sport oriented and the ITF is more combat oriented these days, but that is not always the case. The best school I know of is WTF, but in general, ITF is more open to combat... Just look at how they differ in their sport-style tournaments.

But I do believe there should be some standard that is the same anywhere you go. Kukkiwon is that standard. You don't have to be in the WTF, or the ITF, or such to get a Kukkiwon dan rank. You just need to test under Kukkiwon conditions and meet the requirements, as simple as that. Well, not as simple as that, but it's not they exclude anybody.

It would be unfair for someone who've been training for 25 years to only have a 4th dan, and have one guy who's been training for 5 years and has a 4th dan also, provided that both the people put it their all and were dedicated equally. Or, what's worse is if you have some 8 year old kid with a 2nd dan, who hasn't been going three days a week. That doesn't work. Then you have the other guy, who's been under the strictest of teachers. One mess-up or one sign of bad technique during anything would be failure. He only has a 1st dan after training for 5 years, training for hours daily, five or six times a week.

That's why there should be a standard. There is no standard for skill, but for rank, there has to be a standard. Like in the military, a colonel doesn't have to be the best tactical guy out there (since he has other skills that landed him that commissioned position). As a 2nd Lt., I shot better with my pistol and rifle than my superiors when though I was less experienced, was more adept at armed and unarmed combat than them, was a better strategist... And I was what they called a "computer geek" in the military. And also, there was a measly private, the normal enlisted man, who shot better than me faster and more accurately in anything. However, not regarding skill, there were standards that we all abided by.

 

[KennethKu]

originally by DAC

kenethku.

I have e-mailed certificates and proof to 2 posters that do not know me and would also like that proof, due to the respect that they show even in their doubting me they have received thier proof, you however I will prove nothing to you!

It wouldn't make me lose any sleep.
It isn't me you need to prove your claims to.

When you have 2 players from the same place who claimed ranks that cannot be authenicated by the recognized authority of the specific arts, there is more than enough proof to choke a horse already.

Regarding respect, I show respect to those who deserve respect. I also do not care to earn respect from people I don't respect. I am sure most people feel the same on this.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
I don't think the issue was charging for testing, charging for belts, etc., but rather the exorbitant fees some organizations and schools charge...

There is a thread in the TKD forum where they were discussing how much they have all paid for their testing to black belt... One guy paid over $450 for his test, and all he got was an embroidered belt, a certificate and a card. Sure, the belt can be pricy, and a certificate can also be valuable, but $450.00???

I don't think so.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

Yeah, but think of it this way... You have to think like a McDojanist

Think of it this way, you get fries with that belt and your "martial" skills :rofl:

 

[KennethKu]

Note: I do not mean to imply that Kukkiwon is the ONLY recognized authority of TKD. You can be part of other legitimate federations. However, Smith's "Garage Federation" is pure crap.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Martial Artist,

In regards to the Kukkiwon allowing Dan jumping, skipping or whatever....:shrug:



The part of the Kukkiwon website that you posted indicates that the individual needs to pay for the rank skipped in addition to the one sought. It would seem the exceptional cases are those in which the individual has money to line the coffers of the Kukkiwon with. And rarely is a relative term indeed. Is it rare because many legitimate TKD practitioners simply have to much integrity to do so or that they simply lack the funds making it....rare?

And this is the organization that a TKD practitioner needs to belong to so that their Dan is legitimate????? Sounds like 'pay us money and we'll recognize you' to me

How about an organization that recognizes you for free....Now tha would sound more legitimate to me. No politics, no $$$ incentive...just plain ole respect of ability and time commited!

Now theres a novel thought. Seems to me that I've DONE that and have gotten grief over it. Everyone has different sets of values I suppose.



Hey...sounds good...



Doesn't sound very high to me

And you say I need to belong to an organization such as this in my particular disciplines for legitimacy??? :shrug:

I'll stick with the ones that have checked me out thoroughly without $ interest and accepted me amoung their honored ranks.

Don Roley,



I have given contact information to quite a few here. Just not some. Mutual respect goes a long way towards free flow of information...and has.



Does that apply to anyone here??? Not that I know of. I've never claimed to be a member of any Okinawan organization that claims to govern a Chinese style And if I knew of any Chinese organizations that were affiliated with that particular discipline I would have sought them out long ago.

As I've said repeatedly, my Pangainoon was an off-shoot of what was originally Uechi. My Dan is just a lowly little school Dan based on what I've been taught since the early 70's from various men WAY above me in ability from around the world. I can't boast of a home organization...cause I don't have one....cause I focused on training rather than organizational membership. My bad, and one thats caused some grief, but so be it.

What good would it do to post my last instructors name? Nobody will have heard of him. He's gone now anyway. However, I have posted the names of all the organizations to which I have chosen to be affiliated with. As I've lived in Europe and the Middle East, most of them are located in those countries. Once again, feel free to contact them as you wish. They've checked me out as completely as one can be checked out and 'recognized me'. If your not satisfied with that....who cares?

[And alot of us have been laughing at you as well. Your E-budo has caught up with you ] You wanna keep the Die hard batteries in the dead horse, feel free. Don't wanna be my buddy I can live with that as well. However, if and when you can concentrate on stuff other than my wall candy...maybe we can contribute to each other. Now wouldn't that be a nice change? :asian:

Seig,

I agree there is good with the bad. And just to be completely open, although my little insignificant school rank puts me amoung them on paper, I freely admit that as an artist I am no where near their caliber. As far as real world experience...that is quite another story.

I know I missed something or someone...my apologies.

:asian:

What I'm saying is that getting a 1st dan from Kukkiwon is not that much more difficult than getting a 1st dan from another organization.

And if you look at it this way, people who get certificates from Kukkiwon get promoted fast until third dan, then they stop because they realize that they've gone too fast and/or lack the base and understanding that slower-paced and more studious students go at, or it's just too hard for them.

"Pay me and get a certificate in the organization" - It is true in almost every school. If I was in your school, I would pay you to teach me and you would give me the certificate. Same concept. Only difference is Kukkiwon really the one to blame for outlandish prices? I don't know about you, but it's usually the schools that charge $2000 annually or something like that who charge $500 for testing fees. Coincidence?

An organization that recognizes you for free... You know how many people are working right in the very building? They aren't rich, just asking humbly for their services of managing all the international affairs including inputing your information for dan rank AND get to be part of something they love to do. I see no wrong to pay for their services so they can put food on the table too. The rich guys in MA usually gives out the least work and has the least understanding of MA (not including variables such as being an entertainer/actor and the like ie: Chuck Norris is fairly rich due to his celebrity status, not from teaching MA).

 

[A.R.K.]

However, Smith's "Garage Federation" is pure crap.

What in the world are you talking about

Who mentioned Mr. Smith having any type of federation???

 

[Matt Stone]

Not trying to be a self-appointed thread cop, but... :shrug:

I think we have drifted rather far from the original, generic topic.

While I believe that there are certainly some intersecting issues regarding specific organizations, their policies and practices, and members making claims of grading, the original intent (I thought) was to simply deal with the ideals and concepts of what constitutes legitimate claims, how claims can be proven or disproven, what constitutes worthwhile proof... I could be wrong, and I could check out the first posts easily enough, but I don't feel like it...

Let's stop pimp-slapping the Kukkiwon and deal with the more general topic at hand...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by arnisador
I am familiar with cases of skipping a rank that I believe to be legitimate involving instructors who ceased being involved with an art publicly, due to politics, but continued to train and teach privately for many years. When they returned to the public scene they were grossly under-ranked for their abilities and time served. It's easy to say "you bowed out, your loss" but in the real world one wants to be welcoming to those who want to rejoin the fold!

However, jumping someone who is active but very skilled seems iffy to me. One could always grant a waiver on the minimum time to the next rank instead.

I wasn't in an organization for a looooonnggg time. However, when I rejoined, I wasn't demoted or anything, people actually welcomed me. I didn't have a 5th degree or anything, but a dan certificate from Kukkiwon stays there in most cases. A school cannot demote you technically, only Kukkiwon can if your belt is from them. A school can demote you for having such little skill and knowledge for a 5th dan. The beauty of it is that you've met the requirements that were needed to be promoted to the next rank, so you stay that way... But with today's conditions, I've seen green belts who look better than 3rd dans. But yeah, people usually know whether they earned their belt or not... If they don't know, they will realize it later, especially when some gifted white belt comes along and humiliates all of them, including the instructor.

Another thing, you usually can't bow out, because Kukkiwon really doesn't know whether you quit the school or not. Frankly, they don't care if you quit a school or not or join another one unless you're very high up there to be noticed. They don't know your current status on whether you're a current practitioner or someone who has moved elsewhere or quit altogether, or what your current condition is. It's like a college degree. Once you get it, it doesn't matter where you work, or whether you work at the given time or not, it is there to stay. And yes, everyone including me forgot a lot of the stuff they taught in college in order to obtain the degree. Yet, no matter what you forgot, you still earned the degree. If you apply for another job, the degree is indeed counted (if required for the particular job). After that, it's your PERFORMANCE that comes into play... Just like in the martial arts.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
Not trying to be a self-appointed thread cop, but... :shrug:

I think we have drifted rather far from the original, generic topic.

While I believe that there are certainly some intersecting issues regarding specific organizations, their policies and practices, and members making claims of grading, the original intent (I thought) was to simply deal with the ideals and concepts of what constitutes legitimate claims, how claims can be proven or disproven, what constitutes worthwhile proof... I could be wrong, and I could check out the first posts easily enough, but I don't feel like it...

Let's stop pimp-slapping the Kukkiwon and deal with the more general topic at hand...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

My apologies.

I believe all that is said is now said, and I will at least try to get back on the related subject.

But like I've said before, going after single things is related to going things in general. And a lot of claims made on the internet are based on bullshido organizations because they give out a 9th dan, and someone claims that have a 9th dan that doesn't check out, and they just own the character. Either that or they're totally lying, or maybe a combination of both.

 

[MartialArtist]

Another thing to add is that like a college degree, it matters where you get the degree. Some employers do discriminate depending on which college you went to. Almost all employers will accept degrees from many colleges, but if it was from a mail-order place... And I would view a more influential and recognized degree from say, a computer science degree from MIT, or a medical degree from Harvard or John Hopkins, to a law degree from Yale more highly than having counterpart degrees from a state college. Many times, a degree from a state college is good enough, but what is more noticeable?

 

[A.R.K.]

Y1,

I don't think its a matter of beating up on the Kukkiwon per se. They just happen to be a well known example of where this thread has wandered.

I fully recognize the Kukkiwon = TKD [a generality]. It is a/the recognized authorized governing world organization. But they have had their problems and have their problems. Have they 'sold' rank...yes they have. Is anyone going to deny direct or indirect knowledge of this? Have we not ALL [most] heard of 'get on the plane x rank in Korea and get off the plane X rank in America'? Are their standards perhaps not a bit lax overall? When we think of McDojo's don't we normally think sport TKD?

Thats not bashing them, thats being honest of what has/is happening. And my point is that many feel for Mr. Smith to be taken seriously as a Dan holder/earner...he needs to join into this

And some here downplay ability as though it is a secondary consideration. I feel it should be first and foremost. You are at X rank in Yiliquan [sorry I don't remember what that is]. You are at X rank because your instructor [Chufeng, Yilisifu?] feels you have earned that. Who is anyone to come along and give you grief over it? I don't know if you belong to an organization that 'recognizes' you at X rank...and to me it doesn't matter if you do or don't. Your instructor is good enough for me.

I don't have that luxury anymore. And since I don't have a 'home' organization for that discipline. I can only offer at this time verification of credentials in that discipline through the organizations I have listed. They have checked me out thoroughly and aren't my 'drinking buddies' [I don't drink anyway]. They did not charge me a penny so I didn't 'buy' rank from them. Thats all I've got bro, a school Dan in an off-shoot that has died out for all intents and purposes. Not Pang as a whole...just our little slice of it. That and some good organizations willing to honor me with what I've presented them.

Grandmaster Yuri Kostrov was impressed enough to give me an honorary Dan in his style. Didn't buy it...he honored me with it. Hopefully that would say something???

Anyway, I now return you to your reguarly scheduled programming

:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by arnisador
Technical forum?

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

My mistake, we discussed starting a tactics /strategy forum but I haven't heard anymore about it.:asian:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=6026

 

[Matt Stone]

ARK -

Personally, I could hack on TKD all day... My experiences with TKD in general, the ATA TKD folks specifically, and with some particular instructors and students, have been less than stellar.

But that's not what I was trying to get across.

We had a decent discussion going about what constitutes recognition, legitimacy, etc. I felt that headway was being made in outlining what folks thought was good and acceptable, and what wasn't.

Then we started attacking the Kukkiwon.

I could care less. They look, on the surface, to be just as corrupt as the USMA and other similar organizations. All about the $$$ and not about legitimate MA at all...

But I'd rather stick to the generic in this thread. We can always start another thread and hack the TKD folks to death there... :lol:

*** CAVEAT - I DO NOT INTEND NOR IMPLY THAT ALL TAE KWON DO SCHOOLS, TEACHERS, STUDENTS OR PRACTITIONERS ARE OF SUB-STANDARD QUALITY OR KNOWLEDGE. IT HAS BEEN MY LIMITED EXPERIENCE WITH TKD IN GENERAL, AND ATA TKD IN PARTICULAR, THAT THEIR SCHOOLS ARE MORE ORIENTED TOWARD MASS PRODUCTION OF BLACK BELTS WITH LITTLE ATTENTION TO DETAIL AND QUALITY. DO NOT FLAME ME FOR COMMENTS INTENDED IN JEST TOWARD ARK.***

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Y1,

I don't think its a matter of beating up on the Kukkiwon per se. They just happen to be a well known example of where this thread has wandered.

I fully recognize the Kukkiwon = TKD [a generality]. It is a/the recognized authorized governing world organization. But they have had their problems and have their problems. Have they 'sold' rank...yes they have. Is anyone going to deny direct or indirect knowledge of this? Have we not ALL [most] heard of 'get on the plane x rank in Korea and get off the plane X rank in America'? Are their standards perhaps not a bit lax overall? When we think of McDojo's don't we normally think sport TKD?

Thats not bashing them, thats being honest of what has/is happening. And my point is that many feel for Mr. Smith to be taken seriously as a Dan holder/earner...he needs to join into this

And some here downplay ability as though it is a secondary consideration. I feel it should be first and foremost. You are at X rank in Yiliquan [sorry I don't remember what that is]. You are at X rank because your instructor [Chufeng, Yilisifu?] feels you have earned that. Who is anyone to come along and give you grief over it? I don't know if you belong to an organization that 'recognizes' you at X rank...and to me it doesn't matter if you do or don't. Your instructor is good enough for me.

I don't have that luxury anymore. And since I don't have a 'home' organization for that discipline. I can only offer at this time verification of credentials in that discipline through the organizations I have listed. They have checked me out thoroughly and aren't my 'drinking buddies' [I don't drink anyway]. They did not charge me a penny so I didn't 'buy' rank from them. Thats all I've got bro, a school Dan in an off-shoot that has died out for all intents and purposes. Not Pang as a whole...just our little slice of it. That and some good organizations willing to honor me with what I've presented them.

Grandmaster Yuri Kostrov was impressed enough to give me an honorary Dan in his style. Didn't buy it...he honored me with it. Hopefully that would say something???

Anyway, I now return you to your reguarly scheduled programming

:asian:

I think the real problem would not be Mr. Smith deciding to leave Kukkiwon, but him giving out dan certificates to his students which no matter how good the student is, won't get him anywhere once he goes elsewhere. His skills could speak for themselves, but the rank wouldn't be legit in other areas, that's the problem. And a bigger problem is when Mr. Smith decides to give one of his students a 9th dan, and his students start claiming on how good they are because they have grandmaster status.

 

[A.R.K.]

Y1,

I believe that the individual TKD practitioner/instructor is hurt by Kukkiwon rather than helped, my opinion.

I feel that real TKD i.e. combat is a fine discipline.

MA,

I think the real problem would not be Mr. Smith deciding to leave Kukkiwon, but him giving out dan certificates to his students which no matter how good the student is, won't get him anywhere once he goes elsewhere.

I never mentioned Mr. Smith leaving the Kukkiwon, only whether he needed to join it or not.

And a bigger problem is when Mr. Smith decides to give one of his students a 9th dan, and his students start claiming on how good they are because they have grandmaster status.

Mr. Smith is at 1st Dan for illustration purposes. A long time before he would award a 9th Dan in anything don't you think?

My whole point is the Kukkiwon is the standard but it doesn't seem to be anything one who is serious would want to be a part of. My opinion.

:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

I must, grudgingly, admit that most organizations ultimately wind up being more about their own existence and perpetuation of the power of the few in charge than they are about the well-being and betterment of their members.

This is true through history, in one form or another, be it about martial arts, government or religion.

However, there are some organizations whose members fight to remain true to their original ideals.

ARK -

Your statement that the individual is harmed more than helped by membership in the Kukkiwon ("Kooky" Won? ) seems spot on. While I hold little real regard for TKD on the whole (based on my experience with KATUSA soldiers on the DMZ with me in Korea back in '89 - '90; my experience in tournaments with ATA TKD people back in Nebraska; and my interaction with TKD folks in the Army), and feel that TKD has degenerated to a "soup stock" art (one who is never used by itself, but must have many components added before it becomes "palatable"), I'll leave that discussion for another time.

Their organizations appear to me, along with the organizations of several other arts, to exist simply to glorify and further inflate the egos of those who head them. Organizations like them should be both avoided and shut down. Hard stance, I know, but that's how I feel...

Gambarimasu.
:asian: