Claims on the Internet.

[A.R.K.]

Oh, actually I think Kirk and Rich have excellent points.

In order for Mr. Smith, our TKD BB to have legitimacy he needs to join the Kukkiwon which allows people to get BB's pretty easy...

Hell, these days, one can get a 1st dan certificate from Kukkiwon in two or three years, training two days a week.

And allows you to jump rankings for the right price...

And what's this jumping dan thing 3), that makes me go ick.

I'm I reading this right? How is that NOT buying rank?

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Oh, actually I think Kirk and Rich have excellent points.

In order for Mr. Smith, our TKD BB to have legitimacy he needs to join the Kukkiwon which allows people to get BB's pretty easy...



And allows you to jump rankings for the right price...



I'm I reading this right? How is that NOT buying rank?

Jumping rank - as in skipping a rank.

It's done very rarely after I've called, and it's only done for the lower dan levels. And you have to be an exceptional case.

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by KennethKu
Yeah riight! I might buy such a lame cover up from a 6 Gulp because the kid might not know any better.

A legitimate 6th dan in TKD has invested a lots of blood and sweat , and years, to get there and is an accomplished member of the organization. He would have 10 Gulp certificates and 6 Dan certificates from his organizations. He would have been tested by a team of MASTERS and even GRANDMASTERS in TKD. There is no chance in hell that he DOES NOT know how to spell Kukkiwon! There is no chance in hell that he does not know if his certificates worth cow chip or not. It makes NO FREAKING SENSE WHATSOEVER! (That is like Mike Tyson didn't not know if Don King is in the boxing promotion business!) The absurdity is sky high, unless, OF COURSE that he is NOT of KUKKIWON!

By the way, who promoted you to 6th Dan, DAC? You ought to know this one! He has to be at least an 8th DAN Master in TKD. I am sure Kukkiwon must has his John Hancock listed prominently. Unless, of course, the guy is NOT from Kukkiwon! Then it would all make sense.

Is there by any chance there is another Kukkiwon in the Middle East too, DAC?

CHUEFENG,

the above quote is from one of the posters I refered to earlier as acting childish, and making himself look foolish.


kenethku.

I have e-mailed certificates and proof to 2 posters that do not know me and would also like that proof, due to the respect that they show even in their doubting me they have received thier proof, you however I will prove nothing to you!

You must give respect in order to recieve it, and I have showed much respect to everyone on this forum(accept the one night I went off)

lol :rofl:

 

[Matt Stone]

Rich -

I think that, in regards to FMA in general, and the farce after the death of GM Presas in particular, yours is an example of what happens when legitimate grading is given without sufficient documentation to support it (it isn't a question of its authenticity, only a question of supporting after GM Presas' untimely passing). I doubt that anyone directly connected to GM Presas that has no interest in the political squabbling would really question your rank or skills... I know I wouldn't. But yours isn't really the posterchild of MA rank claims that we have been speaking about... You aren't running around claiming to be the Great Grandmaster of Modern Arnis (that is someone else from what I have heard... ).

Kirk -

You train in a school. Your teacher promoted you to X grade. Fine. You don't belong to a big organization. Fine. If you were to claim some grade bequeathed upon you by your teacher, again, simple enough to prove... We go to your teacher. If your teacher has already been known to operate a small, quiet school, no worries. If, however, you or he claim affiliation with a large, well known organization, but are unable to provide proof... Well, that's something else entirely....

Jumping rank - as in skipping a rank.

It is relatively uncommon, but I have to admit - I did it twice. When I first started in Yili, we had 10 levels below black sash (the first grade was Novice with no sash; Levels 1 - 3 wore a white sash; Levels 4 - 6 wore a yellow sash; Levels 7 - 9 wore a blue sash), 3 black sash grades, and 3 red sash grades.

When I was testing to go from Level 2 White to Level 3 White, I was instead promoted to Level 4 Yellow. Likewise, when I tested for Level 5 Yellow, I was instead promoted to Level 7 Blue! I tried to turn that one down, but our teacher has a habit of stuffing it down your throat no matter what...

However, I also must admit, I don't recall it occurring to too many others. There were others, but I don't remember there having been too many...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[Disco]

I believe you mean well and your trying to have some meaningful input to the discussion, but your tap danceing in a mine field.

Kukkiwon - Main gym in Korea, clearing house for WTF Dan certification. Many Korean Masters can and will issue rank certifications in the particular style they teach. These certifications are recognized internationally. The only thing a Kukkiwon certification does for you is allows you to try for the Olympics. It's stated on their web site that you must be Kukkiwon certified to compete. The ITF based in Canada has no affiliation to the Kukkiwon and their certifications are recognized internationally. AAU now has TKD Dan certification and it too is recognized. There are others, but the main point is that the Kukkiwon, although viewed as the top organization, is not the endall in TKD for recognition. Want a list of other's, go to -------
http://www.martialartsresource.com/Hoshinsool-online/hkdorgs.htm

Politics run amuck within the higher rankings in this country. We saw that last night with the USTW posting. As far as skipping / jumping ranks, it dosen't happen alot, but it does happen and not just at the low levels. I've seen it, but there's no way I could prove it. If I'm not mistaken, the last time I inquired (about 10 yrs ago). Rank up to 4th in America you could test in front of 2 Masters at 6th or above. For 5th Dan and above you had to go to the Kukkiwon to test. If that requirement has changed, then I stand corrected. But at the time, it was in place to reduce the amount of non-koreans seeking higher rankings. Most people could not afford to take the trip and plus the fact, as you pointed out, that any mistake in testing would result in failure. If you had deep pockets, you could go far.

Sorry, getting way to wordy, I'll just leave it here. There's way to much that can be gotten into. Surfice to say, politics + money = bad martial arts feelings.
:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by arnisador
See here.

If the Sheriff and friends LEAD BY EXAMPLE you can see the Dans, others wise thats it for now

http://www.hayashismartialarts.com/homepage.htm


:asian:

 

[SteelShadow]

I have seen where some dan tests ranged from 75.00 to 500.00dollars.My question is whats the point of paying such high fees its a rip off.If you have been studying a art for 5 10 or 20 yrs and you are testing for a high dan rank why should they charge you such a high amount.You have already proven your worth and dedication as well as your hard work.I believe the test should be given with little or no cost personaly.I mean what are you realy paying for?.You pay dues every month to train you pay for uniforms equipment and such.So your teacher or his peers have to set thru your testing.Its not worth great amounts of money just for that.If you want to honor them with a gift so be it.But paying hundreds of dollars on top of your already paying dues.And then even having to pay for the belt you earned anyway.Its just another way to line someones pocket in my oppion.My students pay monthly dues and they pay for the gi's.
But there is no charge for a rank test of any level.They earned that test they earned the right to take it.And in MHO its wrong for me to charge them for something they have already earned to begin with.I even pay for there belts.I was just wondering why so many people think its ok to pay hundreds of dollars for a test?

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by A.R.K.

*If Mr. Smith decides to no be affiliated with any particular organization, or no organization does that affect the validity of his 1st degree black belt in any way?

Well, if he claims 1st degree, he would still have the instructor who gave it to him to point to. If he can not show any orginizaition who his rank is registered, and he refuses to give contact info for his teacher, then you can be safe in saying that he has no more proof of 1st dan than Ashida Kim does of being a ninja master.

And if he originally claims to be a XXX- orginization black belt, only to have someone else call the orginization to find out the story is not true, then it is fairly pathetic to see them start to whine that they were not talking about the xxx- orginization and that rank really does not matter since they are such macho studs.

A lot of us have been laughing over that one off line.

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
kenethku.

I have e-mailed certificates and proof to 2 posters that do not know me and would also like that proof, due to the respect that they show even in their doubting me they have received thier proof, you however I will prove nothing to you!

Hmmm, 24 hours ago you did not know how to scan your certificates. Glad to see you solved the problem so fast.

But who are the two folks you sent them to? If they are truely independent people like Arnisador and back up what you say, then we have figured out a way to protect privacy while still gaining trust. Of course, if they are unknown people, the problem with trust will still be there.

I can imagine you not wnaitng to help someone because you are mad at them. But it just seems logiacal that you would be served better by posting your certificates in public while saying, "See! Neener, neener, neener! Don't you look like an idiot for doubting me!"

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by Don Roley
Hmmm, 24 hours ago you did not know how to scan your certificates. Glad to see you solved the problem so fast.

But who are the two folks you sent them to? If they are truely independent people like Arnisador and back up what you say, then we have figured out a way to protect privacy while still gaining trust. Of course, if they are unknown people, the problem with trust will still be there.

I can imagine you not wnaitng to help someone because you are mad at them. But it just seems logiacal that you would be served better by posting your certificates in public while saying, "See! Neener, neener, neener! Don't you look like an idiot for doubting me!"

I went to my fathers house and scanned them in tonight and then e-mailed them to myself so I could inturn forward them to others.

I'm sure once the smoke settles everyone will be satisfied with the two I have chosen, If arnisador or any other mod for that matter want to see the proof they can send me a PM with thier e-mail address and I will be glad to send them.

I dont want to post them for all as their are many people here that somtimes act a little immature.

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by akja
So when is EVERYBODY ELSE going to scan their certificates and POST them!!! So many of you all have given advice on how to do it!!

I think that if anyone claimed to have a rank in this forum, then the above statement to be correct. But if they did not, then I do not think they should have to.

In my case, I have never said what rank I have, but I have mentioned that I can read and write Japanese. As such, maybe I should provide a way of proving what I say that anyone can check for themselves. And you do not have to worry about it being a photo shop creation posted on the net.

I believe that any Japanese consulate can confirm the fact that I hold the highest rating the Japanese goverment tests for in Japanese as a second language. (1st kyu). You know my name, and the number on the top left of the certificate is 1D84293 and on the right top they are 1121972. The test was taken in Tokyo and the certificate issued on 2-7-00.

See! No one has to take my word for it. They can go to a consulate and confirm this for themsleves. At least I think that is the way they can do it. If the consulate will not confirm the score, then I could have saved myself a hell of a lot of trouble by just making a copy of this thing and listing it on my resume with no fear of being caught.

In the same light, if someone goes to the trouble of getting a rank, it only makes sense that they would be willing to prove it to others. If they don't care about rank, then they will never go tot he trouble of getting it in the first place. So I have troule understanding the idea that someone can claim rank and then say they do not think it is important when asked to prove it.

 

[Disco]

I don't think many feel it's OK to pay such high fee's, it's just that it's kind of a catch 22. You spend all that time training as you pointed out and for most people, depending on what part of the country your in, your more than likely stuck in the only game in town. The problem from my viewpoint is primarily found with WTF TKD schools. I'm sure there are other participants drawing from the well, but they took their lead from TKD. Most people being trusting and having no conflicting information available, believe what's being presented to them. It's only when they've been exposed to the other side that they realize they've been taken advantage of. Some don't want to start over somewhere else. Other's just quit, while other's just accept it and continue to pay.
I believe the same way you do, but these schools are getting fat and I don't think their going to change anytime soon.
:asian:

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
I went to my fathers house and scanned them in tonight and then e-mailed them to myself so I could inturn forward them to others.

I'm sure once the smoke settles everyone will be satisfied with the two I have chosen,

Wait a second. In your last post before this you said, "I have e-mailed certificates and proof to 2 posters that do not know me"

I have e-mailed. Past tense. Have you sent them out or not? And who are you sending them to? Please give us their names so we can determine if they are trustworthy sorts or not for ourselves. If Arnisador is one, then he is a person almost anyone can trust. But if we have never heard of these two, you will have a much worse time of convincing others.

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by Don Roley
Wait a second. In your last post before this you said, "I have e-mailed certificates and proof to 2 posters that do not know me"

I have e-mailed. Past tense. Have you sent them out or not? And who are you sending them to? Please give us their names so we can determine if they are trustworthy sorts or not for ourselves. If Arnisador is one, then he is a person almost anyone can trust. But if we have never heard of these two, you will have a much worse time of convincing others.

Don,

one has already recieved the certs. but I dont think they have examined them yet and the other I am waiting to respond back to me via PM so I can send them out.

Trust me and be patient after they have had a chance to see them they will be revealed along with their opinions.

If arnisador wants to see them and report back he is more than welcome but I need a PM with his e-mail address I do not know any other way to send them.

:asian:

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
Seig I have would agree with you in general but look at who they are. For example Ric Martin I think is around 7th-8th. Frank Goreman is probably 8th. Joe Lewis, Mike McGann, Bill Blaise, Jim Graden etc. Not exactly mcdojos. Ric & Frank tested under Kanie and/or Kammie personally in Okinawa.

Your reference to politics is accurate though, and a sad truth unfortunately.

:asian:

I know a lot of those guys and would also have to add Bill Ferkile and John Prevatt. But I was talking about people like Rich Alford, Bill Clase, Carl Stone, Jim Lemmin, and a whole host of others. Mr. Martin is a hell of a good guy. He catches a lot of flack because of the facility he has built. No judegements there, just a statement. While I do not know the Graden's personally, I have had the opportunity to deal with several of their alleged black belts, I was not left with a favorable impression of them. Don Wilson is also from the general vicinity. I am not stating that there are no good high ranking black belts, I am stating that there are a lot of no good allegedly high ranking black belts.
I trained under or with a lot of these men at one time or another in one capacity or another. All were goodcmartial artists, ability wise. The issues occurred when the mutual promotional society began. Not all, such as the ones you listed, are in this club, but a great many are. I had the "audacity" back in 2000 to get into a disagreement with a guy sporting a 6th. He tried to pull rank on me and then when I asked him how he got to be a 6th when I remember teaching him as a green belt, he left. No, I will not name him. The real issue is this, there are a lot of great black belts out there. Some have high rank, Ric Martin, some do not, Berto Friedman. But the bozos claiming Uber-Rank out number them 5 to 1.

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Isn't kenpo and kempo the same thing? From my understanding, it is just a different translation from kanji to English.

Basically, you are correct. As I understand it and was taught, the Kenpo with the N is referring more to the Chinese heritage wheras the M is referring to the Japanese heritage.

I'm not saying that Kenpo is just Japanese. Ed Parker did a lot of studying with Chinese systems. However, the term American kenpo karate did not come out of the blue.


Like I said before, I do not deny Chinese influence. Look at the logo, even that has Chinese influence.

We agree:asian:

 

[Don Roley]

Originally posted by DAC..florida
Trust me and be patient after they have had a chance to see them they will be revealed along with their opinions.

Ok, fair enough. It would have been better if you had announced it after they had a chance to look at it, but it seems fair to give you a reasonable amount of time.

But I want to point out one problem. Why should we trust these two people? I am not talking about just the idea that they may be screen names set up by you, but rather that they are in a position to know that the certificates given to you are indeed legitimate? I would offer to look over them, but I do not know Korean and do not know much about the arts of Korea. So, how do we know that these people know more than I about the matter.

As I see it, if you post it in public, then many people can see it and eventually a person with a reputation of knowing about these things can comment on it. I may not know the situation, but there are people I am sure I would believe if they said it was real. Since you do not want to post it in public, how about finding a person whose reputation is beyond question and whose knowledge about the matter is acknowledged by most?

And I should point out that this thread is not supposed to be about one person, persons or their credentials. But I think that by showing how we can prove things to everyone's satisfaction we can show that as long as you have the honest desire to prove a claim you make- you can. Those that do not want to prove things will only make excuses. I hope that by using myself as an example I have shown how claims of even language ability can be proven independently.

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
That's not the point though.

The topic is more on the people who operate schools that say rank doesn't matter, but advertise outlandish ranks.

If you operate a school, and then get one black belt after another, and advertise it by saying you're a 9th degree, that's where the trouble comes in. Rank doesn't matter unless one advertises it.

What about guys like me who are only thirds?

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Don Roley
I think that if anyone claimed to have a rank in this forum, then the above statement to be correct. But if they did not, then I do not think they should have to.

In my case, I have never said what rank I have, but I have mentioned that I can read and write Japanese. As such, maybe I should provide a way of proving what I say that anyone can check for themselves. And you do not have to worry about it being a photo shop creation posted on the net.

I believe that any Japanese consulate can confirm the fact that I hold the highest rating the Japanese goverment tests for in Japanese as a second language. (1st kyu). You know my name, and the number on the top left of the certificate is 1D84293 and on the right top they are 1121972. The test was taken in Tokyo and the certificate issued on 2-7-00.

See! No one has to take my word for it. They can go to a consulate and confirm this for themsleves. At least I think that is the way they can do it. If the consulate will not confirm the score, then I could have saved myself a hell of a lot of trouble by just making a copy of this thing and listing it on my resume with no fear of being caught.

In the same light, if someone goes to the trouble of getting a rank, it only makes sense that they would be willing to prove it to others. If they don't care about rank, then they will never go tot he trouble of getting it in the first place. So I have troule understanding the idea that someone can claim rank and then say they do not think it is important when asked to prove it.

Its not really about if you claimed a certain rank, now prove it. There have been several people who hounded a couple individuals and expected them to "prove themselves."

No problem but if one needs to prove themself then both sides should prove themselves. Thats all. Show them "WHO" they are proving themselves to. Fair is fair.

I think self policing can be "productive" is it is done respectfully but I don't see that over the last several threads. My self included, but I am hard headed as others but enouh is enough.:asian:

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by SteelShadow
I have seen where some dan tests ranged from 75.00 to 500.00dollars.My question is whats the point of paying such high fees its a rip off.If you have been studying a art for 5 10 or 20 yrs and you are testing for a high dan rank why should they charge you such a high amount.You have already proven your worth and dedication as well as your hard work.I believe the test should be given with little or no cost personaly.I mean what are you realy paying for?.You pay dues every month to train you pay for uniforms equipment and such.So your teacher or his peers have to set thru your testing.Its not worth great amounts of money just for that.If you want to honor them with a gift so be it.But paying hundreds of dollars on top of your already paying dues.And then even having to pay for the belt you earned anyway.Its just another way to line someones pocket in my oppion.My students pay monthly dues and they pay for the gi's.
But there is no charge for a rank test of any level.They earned that test they earned the right to take it.And in MHO its wrong for me to charge them for something they have already earned to begin with.I even pay for there belts.I was just wondering why so many people think its ok to pay hundreds of dollars for a test?

What about a guy like me? I have a small school, 30 students. I have to pay rent, electric, phone, etc.. Dues cover my overhead. I make nothing. Should I give away the belt? It does cost me money for the belt, shipping charges, plus I have to take the time to put together orders. I also belong to an International Organization. I have to pay the organization every time I promote. Should I continue to runa business and teach people for hours, days, weeks, months, and years for no recompense? I work a full time job to support myself and my family and occassionally the school. I'm glad you are able to give away belts as if they have no value. And before you flame me, let me explain that statement. Value is perceived, not in blood, sweat and tears, but money. People attach more value to something when they ahve also paid for it. Unfortunate, but true. I wish I did not have to charge for belts or testing, but I cannot afford not to.